Gamasutra article about Deus Ex:IW

ZylonBane on 19/8/2009 at 23:38

Quote Posted by Chade

So it's ok if you illogically constrain the player to a linear narrative like every other game, but as soon as you even take baby steps to open that up, you'll get pounced on for not running before you can crawl?

Ah, the "A for Effort!" approach to game criticism.

DX's approach worked for building suspension of disbelief, IW's approach actively undermined it. It's really that simple.

Ostriig on 20/8/2009 at 00:10

Quote Posted by Chade

First off, from a purely user-perspective, ZB has a point there - one worked well for its purposes, the other didn't. Though I will grant you that this consideration may indeed be "regressive" as a general thing, and one that I would certainly not embrace indiscriminately, in this particular case it's not.

You see, the more important counterpoint here is that IW was not trying something new. Branching story models are not something new to videogames, albeit they are a rare occurrence. I imagine that others may come up with more apt illustrations of branching storylines, but off the top of my head, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(computer_game)) this is an excellent example. Sacrifice, an action/RPG/RTS hybrid from 2001, did exactly what IW should've done - offered a number of available factions, with conflicting goals, of which you could freely choose any one for each of the first couple of missions, but afterwards your new choices started narrowing down based on your previous ones. Important choices with appropriate consequences. It made sense from a narrative perspective, and it worked superbly as a gameplay and plot-driving mechanic.

Papy on 20/8/2009 at 00:13

Quote Posted by Chade

But if we're looking for explanations, I would say lack of contact is a pretty good explanation.

What do you mean with lack of "contact"?

Quote Posted by Chade

This is what thief and deus ex have been trying to do all along, using highly connected mechanics.

Either you didn't understood what I meant, or I don't understand what you mean because your reply doesn't make much sense to me (particularly since you include Thief).

As for what Harvey Smith said, it really depends on what he meant with "narrative". If he meant choosing the shotgun or a grenade, then I agree. If he meant interactions between the player and and NPC (other than fighting), then he was obviously on crack when he said that.

I'd like to know, on your part, what do you mean with the word "narrative"?

Quote Posted by Chade

As opposed to DX ... how?

Remember when you sent the signal in Hell's Kitchen? Remember what happened after? Of course the player didn't have a choice, but the impression of being seriously punished for your action was still there. That's something which was completely absent with IW (and I believe it was voluntary).

Quote Posted by Chade

So it's ok if you illogically constrain the player to a linear narrative like every other game

"Illogically"? Are you kidding? Do we make a poll to ask which story, between DX and IW, was more "logical"?

Chade on 20/8/2009 at 00:18

EDIT: I am responding to ZB, I hadn't seen your posts when I qrote this ...

Except that it's not just about some inherent quality of the game, it's also about how audiences are conditioned by other media to respond to games. Linear narrative has always been awkward to stick in a game. It's only "immersive" because we have years of conditioning that tells us to overlook all the rough corners.

My response to IW was to get really excited about the oppurtunity to express myself, and get much more involved in the story then I would have otherwise. I wasn't affected by the foldback because I had enver expected my choices to have long term repurcussions, so it didn't violate any of my expectations. It's just a matter of perspective.

I guess I'm being very dramatic about this, and I wouldn't blame you all for rolling your eyes, but it's not like I can't quote designers who are (http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2009/06/ethical-decision-making/comments/page/2/#comments) worried about the broader trend:

Quote Posted by Clint Hocking

They [comics] gave the audience what they wanted, and now >95% of comics are superhero comics and the medium is completely lost to general public.

...

Given that:
a) the general public who are increasingly playing games are highly fluent in appreciating emotionally engaging content doled out by authors
b) our ability to deliver authored emotional experiences is improving and the games that are leading the way are more successful than those that try more game-native approaches to driving emotional engagement

I am gravely concerned that we are only a small step away from being actually (or even just practically) forbidden from exploring these new approaches because they are too risky or not profitable enough.

...

Worse than that, those who strive to develop the new vocabulary of expression may end up left behind.

Worse still, the audience may never realize what they are missing.

...

Now - I appreciate your 'why can't we work together on this' approach (and I'm not being facetious, I do appreciate it) - I am concerned that this approach itself *is* what kills the future of our industry.

And I don't want to sound like a Crawfordly old curmudgeon, but I see the building pressures, and they're very real.

(Finally, on a somewhat bitchy note, isn't it sad that KoTOR can do exactly the same thing as DX2, but lie to the player about it, and no-one complains? Is the introduction of a few ambiguous dialog lines all it takes to make gamers happy?)

Pyrian on 20/8/2009 at 01:50

Quote Posted by Papy

Isn't that the single most complained about section of Deus Ex's narrative? You can't stay with UNATCO over your brother's objections, no matter what you try to do, and you can't win free, no matter how completely you bypass the opposition (I even got past the invisible walls into Battery park, but then there's just nowhere to go).

Comparing the consequences of choices you make to choices you don't make just isn't very fair.

Non-simulated branching gameplay has huge economic downsides. Simply put, you're making, say, 20 hours of gameplay for 10 hours of game. There are some economies - certainly some locations can be re-used, heck DX does that a lot as-is - but they'll still have to be heavily customized, re-narrated and voice-acted, and tested. Spector famously aimed for 75% of content to be used in a single play-through, and the primary counter-argument came from Gabe Newell arguing for 100%...

rachel on 20/8/2009 at 03:59

Quote Posted by Pyrian

In the way it was handled perhaps. Narratively that's what makes DX a better game.
KotoR did it right: depending on your karma people would talk to/ deal with you or not. IW almost did it with the Omar iirc but the other factions had like a mindwipe after every mission and asked you to do stuff for them even if you repeatedly killed their goons... As a player I didn't feel more important, I felt that my actions meant nothing.

Papy on 20/8/2009 at 12:29

Quote Posted by Chade

Linear narrative has always been awkward to stick in a game. It's only "immersive" because we have years of conditioning that tells us to overlook all the rough corners.

In the 80s, I didn't have years of "conditioning" and yet I had no problem with linear narrative. None of us had.

Quote Posted by Chade

My response to IW was to get really excited about the oppurtunity to express myself, and get much more involved in the story then I would have otherwise.

I don't really have a need to "express" myself with a video game (actually, it's more that I don't see the point), but I'd certainly would like games where NPCs would react more to what I'm doing. But not at the price of making those reactions completely ridiculous and completely destroying the believability of the game's world.

Quote Posted by Chade

I wasn't affected by the foldback because I had never expected my choices to have long term repurcussions, so it didn't violate any of my expectations. It's just a matter of perspective.

Isn't that the "conditioning" you were talking about? Because personally, if I betray someone, I certainly expect long term repercussions.

Quote Posted by Pyrian

Isn't that the single most complained about section of Deus Ex's narrative?

Are there really a lot of people who wanted to stay with UNATCO on their first playthrough? Was UNATCO really the organization that express your ideals? I mean I understand the fun in playing a villain, but, to me, having the desire to play a role that is not "you" is only possible if you are not immersed with the game and view it more like a toy.

d'Spair on 20/8/2009 at 12:43

Quote Posted by Papy

I mean I understand the fun in playing a villain, but, to me, having the desire to play a role that is not "you" is only possible if you are not immersed with the game and view it more like a toy.

No immersion in playing Thief, then.

Thirith on 20/8/2009 at 12:51

Quote Posted by Chade

Linear narrative has always been awkward to stick in a game. It's only "immersive" because we have years of conditioning that tells us to overlook all the rough corners.

I don't really agree with this, not as a rule. It all depends on the narrative and how it's told; e.g. in the first System Shock, I never felt that the game artificially restricted my options in ways that were inadequately explained by the story. The restrictions that were there and kept things linear came pretty organically from the setting, making SHODAN feel all the more powerful. As long as the game's narrative does a good job of making it credible that there was only one option, I don't mind linearity. It's when the game doesn't stick to its own storytelling rules (e.g. taking my character's decisions blatantly out of my hands by putting them in a cutscene) that I feel the linearity to be wholly artificial.

Edit: I'd also say that it's not narrative that gets me immersed in a game - it's the moment-to-moment experience of the game, the coherence of the game world, which narrative can help with but can also hinder.

Papy on 20/8/2009 at 13:51

Quote Posted by d'Spair

No immersion in playing Thief, then.

Garrett was a villain?