ZylonBane on 14/8/2009 at 03:21
It's kind of hilarious, in a horrible, tragic way, that UNATCO HQ is actually revisted twice in IW... and both times, it sucks.
Chade on 14/8/2009 at 03:37
Quote Posted by heywood
I thought Brandon's comment was a bit strange. He said the mantra on IW was "immersive simulation", but it sure seems they tried to make IW less of a sim than DX.
How so? Lighting, sound, physics, AI, object interaction ... all more detailed then DX. The statistics are less detailed, and your abilities could be considered more or less detailed depending on how you measure it. It's hardly a uniform picture.
You couldn't shoot a barrel untill it spouted fire, throw a corpse through the flame onto another guard, and watch that guard catch fire, in the original. You couldn't move a barrell so that it blocked a light and allowed you to sneak past in the original. You couldn't run around with a leaking gas barrell in the original. You couldn't take direct control of robots in the original. Etc ...
EDIT: the last level is simultaneously the best idea and the worst level in the game.
rachel on 14/8/2009 at 08:25
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
It's kind of hilarious, in a horrible, tragic way, that UNATCO HQ is actually revisted
twice in IW... and both times, it sucks.
Twice? I only remember the last level... Where is the other instance?
ZylonBane on 14/8/2009 at 13:12
Quote Posted by raph
Twice? I only remember the last level... Where is the other instance?
In JC Denton's sanctuary, you pass through Manderley's office.
heywood on 14/8/2009 at 13:14
Quote Posted by Chade
How so? Lighting, sound, physics, AI, object interaction ... all more detailed then DX. The statistics are less detailed, and your abilities could be considered more or less detailed depending on how you measure it. It's hardly a uniform picture.
You couldn't shoot a barrel untill it spouted fire, throw a corpse through the flame onto another guard, and watch that guard catch fire, in the original. You couldn't move a barrell so that it blocked a light and allowed you to sneak past in the original. You couldn't run around with a leaking gas barrell in the original. You couldn't take direct control of robots in the original. Etc ...
EDIT: the last level is simultaneously the best idea and the worst level in the game.
Yes, you're right about the physics and lighting. I was thinking primarily of the skills, weapons, and levels - particularly weapon proficiency and the scale & realism of the level design.
The AI was a bit better in IW, but still a weak point. It seemed like the only thing they fixed was the trigger for alerted enemies to stand down.
Quote Posted by raph
Twice? I only remember the last level... Where is the other instance?
JC's memory in Antarctica. You also go through a very poor facsimile of Maggie Chow's apartment and one or two other areas from DX.
DDL on 14/8/2009 at 14:19
Quote Posted by Chade
How so? Lighting, sound, physics, AI, object interaction ... all more detailed then DX. The statistics are less detailed, and your abilities could be considered more or less detailed depending on how you measure it. It's hardly a uniform picture.
You couldn't shoot a barrel untill it spouted fire, throw a corpse through the flame onto another guard, and watch that guard catch fire, in the original. You couldn't move a barrell so that it blocked a light and allowed you to sneak past in the original. You couldn't run around with a leaking gas barrell in the original. You couldn't take direct control of robots in the original. Etc ...
EDIT: the last level is simultaneously the best idea and the worst level in the game.
Pretty sure you CAN pickup leaking gas barrels in DX, but you might get gassed in the process and thus drop it.
Still, didn't know you could block lights and actually achieve something: that's pretty cool. However, the AI was so ropy regarding player detection that it seems almost not worth it.
Ragdoll physics though: they're hilarious.
D'Juhn Keep on 14/8/2009 at 18:31
If you're carrying a barrel that's shot and starts leaking then you drop it. I don't believe you can lift an already-leaking barrel even with augs.
Papy on 14/8/2009 at 23:38
Quote Posted by Chade
How so? Lighting, sound, physics, AI, object interaction ... all more detailed then DX.
So you think IW redone with id tech 5 would make it a great immersive simulation? Personally I disagree. I think that even with photo-realistic graphics, I still wouldn't be immersed with the game.
I'm not saying lighting, sound and physics don't help with being immersed, it certainly does, but I think this help his ephemeral. After a while you get used to limited graphics and sounds and you don't notice them anymore. You just end up imagining what's not there. So incredible graphics are not that useful on the longterm. On the other hand, you can't imagine characters, setting and story. So those are a lot more important than technical details.
To me, IW had a definitive Disneylandish feeling. In particular, people never looked "real" because of their dialogs (except, as I said, for NG Resonance, but considering she was a program, I'm not sure I can include her in the "people" group). So no matter the engine, IW would always more or less fail in the immersive department compared to DX.
ZylonBane on 15/8/2009 at 00:26
When the two most interesting characters in your game are AIs, you know there's something wrong.
Chade on 15/8/2009 at 08:56
Quote Posted by Papy
So you think IW redone with id tech 5 would make it a great immersive simulation? Personally I disagree. I think that even with photo-realistic graphics, I still wouldn't be immersed with the game.
I'm not talking about graphics at all ... :confused: All the stuff I mentioned feeds into the gameplay in a pretty major way, it all just depends on how you choose to play.
Quote Posted by Heywood
Yes, you're right about the physics and lighting. I was thinking primarily of the skills, weapons, and levels - particularly weapon proficiency and the scale & realism of the level design.
I didn't mention level design because that was obviously a major fuck-up, rather then something intentional. As far as the player's abilities, I don'think the picture is so clear cut. On the one hand, there are no skills. On the other hand, IMO the augs and weapon mods are better.
Quote Posted by DDL
Still, didn't know you could block lights and actually achieve something: that's pretty cool. However, the AI was so ropy regarding player detection that it seems almost not worth it.
Actually, the biggest problem is not the AI , the biggest problem is that ... well, it just doesn't make much sense to block a light from the point of view of sneaking past it. Usually, if you have an object big enough to block a light, that object will also be heavy, loud, and slow. So if you have an oppurtunity to block a light, that is usually also an oppurtunity to just walk right past.
I would normally block a light in order to carry out some other plan of action in the same area, rather then just to sneak through. To be honest, half the fun of DX2 was just playing around with the game systems because you could, rather then because you needed to. If I just wanted to "complete" the game, I'm sure I would have enjoyed it substantially less. But you could say the same about DX ...
