SubJeff on 8/1/2009 at 08:41
Quote Posted by SD
In the US I think you get the opposite of what we get here in the UK :D
Ha ha/ It certainly sounds like it. The media here is very anti-Israel.
Oddly, it's only a handful of the tabloids that seem to recognise that Hamas want the world to see bodies of dead civilians.
Stitch - yes, Israel did not honour some of the ceasefire agreements, but the did actually honour the "cease" and "fire" bit. If Canada broke some trade agreement with Brazil would that be a valid excuse for Brazil to launch rockets at civilians in Canada, because that is what you seem to be suggesting here:
Quote:
Likewise, if the lion is imposing crippling economic sanctions upon you, the lion should also be prepared for a reaction.
I don't see why Hamas, which is supposedly the government in Gaza and not a bunch of dimwitted thugs, couldn't make a complaint to Israel, the UN and so on without resorting to attacking civilians. That anyone can condone even the thought of this is just beyond belief to me.
SD on 8/1/2009 at 10:51
Quote Posted by fett
I'm looking at patterns. The militant Palestinians have a record of specifically targeting civilians (and more specifically targeting children) through snipers, suicide bombers, etc. Israel has a record of stating their intentions to raid, retaliate, invade, etc, for the express purpose of minimizing civilian casualties. In the hell of war, which of the two is the more humane and merciful?
Eh... not wishing to take sides (because the whole thing bores the shit out of me, both sides are assholes and because I can't take sides without being either accused of being a Zionist jerk or self-loathing anti-semite) but I'm not sure Israel's recent actions could be described as being particularly more humane or merciful than those Palestinians lobbing rockets and mortars.
(
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine) Avi Shlaim's article is the best I've read on the conflict.
Morte on 8/1/2009 at 11:30
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I don't see why Hamas, which is supposedly the government in Gaza and not a bunch of dimwitted thugs, couldn't make a complaint to Israel, the UN and so on without resorting to attacking civilians. That anyone can condone even the thought of this is just beyond belief to me.
That would be a valid argument if anyone actually acknowledged them as a legitimate government, and Isreal, the US and various EU countires hadn't responded to them being democratically elected by instituting sanctions. Not that Hamas aren't massive shits, but how can you reasonably expect them to act like a normal government under those conditions?
Tocky on 8/1/2009 at 12:38
I had a good laugh at that. It's like the bloods or crips got elected and demands they respect while telling you they gone kill yo honkey ass.
DDL on 8/1/2009 at 12:57
Doesn't that mean you have to redefine the whole concept of "democratically elected government?"
"Democratically elected governments who aren't douchebags", or something.
Out of curiosity, coz I really don't know enough about all this: how close are the links between "Hamas the governing party", and "Hamas the people with rocket launchers"? I mean, are we talking 'so damn tight that it might as well be government officials toting the bazookas', or is it closer to 'we're trying to run the country but some other dumb fucks keep firing missiles in our name'?
Nameless Voice on 8/1/2009 at 13:21
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I like how nobody bothers to point out the disparity of Israel being intensely scrutinized and criticized for every action and yet nobody cares whenever someone suicide bombs an Israeli nightclub.
Israel warns in advance when they're going to strike just to give civilians a chance to get out. What fucking military does that?
And while nobody
here has said it, I know a few folks who like to call Israelis Nazis at every chance, as if that somehow weren't completely asinine and downright offensive.
The whole conflict only ever gets into the news when Israelis are killed. Palestinians being quitely killed or oppressed to death on the side are never considered news-worthy.
Give the civilians a chance to get out
to where? Israel has fences and
giant walls to keep them from getting out of their own country, they have nowhere to go.
Worse still is the Israelis and Israel supporters who call
you a Nazi if you ever say anything against the way they run their country. As a person of Germanic descent, I'm not even allowed to criticise them without being called a Nazi, or at least "anti-semitic" (last I checked, the Palestinians were semites too, but no one seems to care about that).
SubJeff on 8/1/2009 at 13:31
Hamas is Hamas. The leaders lead all of Hamas, military or otherwise.
Quote Posted by Morte
Not that Hamas aren't massive shits, but how can you reasonably expect them to act like a normal government under those conditions?
They aren't a "normal" government anyway. I can't think of any other government which has as one of its stated aims the destruction of another country.
The whole thing is messed up - them being in power, they way the respond to disagreements with Israel re:blockades and sanctions, everything.
The most messed up thing is the outpouring of bleeding hearts that are rallying against Israel, some of which are spouting such utter nonsense as "The Jews have become the Nazis."
Morte on 8/1/2009 at 13:36
Quote Posted by DDL
Doesn't that mean you have to redefine the whole concept of "democratically elected government?"
"Democratically elected governments who aren't douchebags", or something.
Out of curiosity, coz I really don't know enough about all this: how close are the links between "Hamas the governing party", and "Hamas the people with rocket launchers"? I mean, are we talking 'so damn tight that it might as well be government officials toting the bazookas', or is it closer to 'we're trying to run the country but some other dumb fucks keep firing missiles in our name'?
Much more the former than the latter.
My favourit thing about Hamas is that they were created partially with Mossad funding, because they wanted to divide the palestinians, and someone had the great idea that they islamists would be a good foil for PLO. You can't say they were wrong!
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
They aren't a "normal" government anyway. I can't think of any other government which has as one of its stated aims the destruction of another country.
The whole thing is messed up - them being in power, they way the respond to disagreements with Israel re:blockades and sanctions, everything.
The most messed up thing is the outpouring of bleeding hearts that are rallying against Israel, some of which are spouting such utter nonsense as "The Jews have become the Nazis."
People could at least try to pretend and accept them, make a good-faith attempt at dealing with them instead of immidiately imposing sanctions because democracy is only good if people make the choices we like. Give them enough rope to hang themselves with.
Israel aren't nazis, but looking at the hardliners, who unfortunately are impossible to marginalize in Israeli politics, it does seem like they'll accept only complete displacement or genocide as a solution, and at that point you're just dealing with another kind of monster.
fett on 8/1/2009 at 15:06
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Give the civilians a chance to get out
to where? Israel has fences and
giant walls to keep them from getting out of their own country, they have nowhere to go.
That's a laugh. The 'giant' wall you saw on the news is roughly 3 feet high in most places.
Queue on 8/1/2009 at 15:13
Quote Posted by fett
Oh stop. I changed the word 'moron' to 'twit'. I felt it was more accurate.
You could have called him a
mormon--infinitely worse.
BTW--I'm leaving, once again, in a huff...forever...truly...trust me this time.
