Morte on 12/1/2009 at 09:10
Quote Posted by SD
So if the Celtics are 82-46 up against the Suns going into the fourth quarter, they should stop playing defense until Phoenix gets 20-30 points back? Maybe give Shaq a dozen unchallenged dunks, make it interesting?
Course not. You do what is necessary to win, and in a war you aim to do that with the minimum loss of life to your own side.
Israel's primary aim is to secure victory as quickly and with the fewest Israeli deaths possible. The welfare of the enemy is a secondary concern.
That's why all these arguments about disproportion are such bullshit. They boil down to "Israel has tanks and missiles and Palestine only has rockets, it's so unfair!" - Oh, well, hey, something to think about next time you attack one of the world's most deadly military forces armed only with glorified fireworks, isn't it?
You could perhaps justify the violence if you could show that this was actually getting them anywhere, but it hasn't in the past, and there's nothing indicating it will this time either, so what we're left with is 70 tits for one tat.
SubJeff on 12/1/2009 at 11:44
I too, tire of this "numbers" game. You'll find that in most wars one side ends up losing more (civilians and troops) than the other.
Having said that, I think the killing of so many civilians in this conflict is awful. If people focused on that fact and stopped looking at the numbers, which are just distraction, I think we'd get a bit further.
What irks me more than anything are these huge anti-Israeli protest.
"Stop teh bombombings of Palestinian civilians!!!"
Where were the protest about Hamas firing indiscriminately into Israel? Where were the protest about the
targeting of civilians and often children?
Quote:
You're right. I certainly expect more from an MIT engineer than from a retard who never finished high school. That's why I will have a tendency to criticize the MIT engineer more than the retard. That doesn't mean I will favor the retard over the MIT engineer in any way. Quite the contrary in fact.
Do you people realise the level of education in the Hamas leadership? These are not retards (I know you weren't suggesting that Papy). The choice to send suicide bombers to blow up young children by a terrorist leader who is (was?) a paediatrician was particularly discordant imho. My point is - these are people who were previously high functioning individuals who have chosen to be racist murderers. And yet no one protest about it. Is it any wonder that the Israelis don't give a shit about what the world thinks? Is it any wonder they are so paranoid?
Kolya on 12/1/2009 at 13:12
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
My point is - these are people who were previously high functioning individuals who have chosen to be racist murderers.
No one simply wakes up one morning and
chooses to become a racist murder. People have a history and resulting motivations, which you should know about. In most cases it can help prevent further conflict, and even if you decide to bomb them to kingdom come, you should know your enemy.
I can see GWB squinting against the light when I hear your simplifications.
Jason Moyer on 12/1/2009 at 13:27
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Having said that, I think the killing of so many civilians in this conflict is awful. If people focused on that fact and stopped looking at the numbers, which are just distraction, I think we'd get a bit further.
I think both sides share a great deal of responsibility for the civilian casualties, too. I don't think Israel is indiscriminantly killing non-combatants, and as always Hamas uses civilians as human shields, but I'm not entirely convinced that Israel really gives a shit about killing civilians as long as they get their military targets. I really think they've basically just thrown their hands up and said "well, if the civilian population is going to allow Hamas to hide amongst them, fuck it, they can have a bomb sandwich too", which may seem logical in some weird way but isn't going to do anything for their international reputation.
Oh yeah, and Nameless Voice, you're right of course, I was thinking of Fatah and not the PLO. And while Arafat's father was a Palestinian (his mother was Egyptian), his claims of being a "Palestinian refugee" were silly.
SubJeff on 12/1/2009 at 13:31
Quote Posted by Kolya
No one simply wakes up one morning and
chooses to become a racist murder.
Who said anything about the morning? Anyone in Hamas, firing rockets into Israel has chosen to attack civilians purely on the basis of race because that is what they say. They have chosen to be racist murderers, regardless of their "reasons".
On the other side the Israelis are clearly going way over the top and I don't think there is any justification for the degree of damage they are doing against the civilian population of Gaza. It goes way beyond "collateral damage" and into the "we don't give a crap" coldness that you'd expect from Hamas. I think it's finally come full circle - they apparently used to try and minimise civilian casualties. I think patience has failed and they've just had enough, and of course that is no excuse.
Kolya on 12/1/2009 at 13:57
Subjective Effect, find yourself a good caring partner and let him/her do the thinking.
You'll thank me one day.
DDL on 12/1/2009 at 14:02
Subjective effect: So...what? Israel then wipes out everyone in gaza, just to be sure they got all of those rockets?
And then they play their "get out of genocide free card" they saved up from WW2, and we just stop cutting them any more slack and treat them with the same sympathy we do everyone else from now on?
I mean...it's a solution, certainly. And for a given definition of 'work', it would..work. But it's not a good solution, surely?
Ok, vast oversimplifications and flippancy aside, I really don't see how Israel intends to achieve any semblance of "victory!" short of just wiping out everyone in the gaza strip (Nuke em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure).
SubJeff on 12/1/2009 at 15:13
I don't know what you are talking about DDL (unless you didn't read the edit I did
straight after my post). That must be it as I certainly don't agree with the Israeli government's current tactics.
Quote:
Subjective Effect, find yourself a good caring partner and let him/her do the thinking.
What on earth are you on about with this line?
And are you seriously saying that Hamas members who fire or order the firing of rockets into Israel at civilians are not both racist (prejudiced/whatever) and potentially murderers? They certainly would be if they had better weapons.
I know they are angry, and given the conditions they live in who could expect otherwise? But choosing to kill children because they are Jewish and calling for the murder of Jews around the world because of Israeli actions is pretty much the definition.
If Hamas want to be taken seriously as a government they have to learn to talk instead of lashing out. The Israelis will only fight back and the cycle of crap continues again.
DDL on 12/1/2009 at 16:49
Sorry SE: I clearly need to learn to read better before posting replies.:erg:
Still, regarding lashing out vs. talking, it's a total chicken/egg situation there: nobody's actually reacting to a complete de novo attack, it's all "I'm hitting you because you hit me because I hit you because you hit me because I hit you...ad infinitum". Someone needs to be the bigger man and just stop, say "ok, fuck it: if you must, you get to retaliate for..whatever, ONCE. And then we both stop and talk."
And to be honest, given the relative differences in bodycounts said 'retaliations' seem to take, I'd say from a pure 'minimising total lives lost' perspective that it's Israel that needs to be the bigger man.
Ultimately, if this is fought on Israel's terms like it currently seems to be, it's simply not something that Hamas can win, ever. They're outmanned, outgunned, outsupplied, outflanked, and probably five or six other outsomethings. They still want to fight back (against land-grabbing, sanctions, or whatever: it doesn't necessarily have to be actual violence, clearly), but they know it's not winnable on 'war terms', so they fight dirty. Declaring "death to all Jews" and firing on children is what they're doing because that's just about all they've got.
If you've only got one kick and you want to make it hurt, do you kick your opponent in the fist, or in the groin?
Israel is the side that has the power to determine the outcome, basically. They can finish it, mortal kombat style, or they can stop and try for a peaceful solution. Hamas can either continue to fight dirty and then be annihilated, or work things out on terms essentially dictated by the Israelis. It's up to the Israelis to dictate terms that aren't so restrictive that "going down fighting" sounds like a more appealing option, which so far has apparently not been the case.
Don't get me wrong, they're both a bunch of hatemongering idiots, but only one side has the strength to end it.
SubJeff on 12/1/2009 at 17:17
Quote Posted by DDL
nobody's actually reacting to a complete
de novo attack
Wrong. 90% of the time it is terrorist rockets/mortars/suicide attacks. Even the Pro-Palestine BBC news recognises and reports this.
Quote:
They still want to fight back (against land-grabbing
There is no land-grabbing. Israel pulled out of Gaza completely. They had to forcibly remover their own people and they had the balls to do it.
Hamas are ridiculous. If they really wanted peace they just have to stop any further attacks. There would be no Israeli retaliation. The Israelis don't want to fight with anyone, but 100s of rockets a year gets old real quick. Hamas have never tried this. They get unhappy about something and instead of saying "Let's talk about this, because it's not working for us." they fire rockets.
If you don't believe me why not compare the Gaza strip with another Palestinian controlled piece of land - The West Bank. When was the last rocket/mortar/suicide attack from there and when was the last Israeli attack? And I'm talking military, not fanatical settlers (who, btw, should all be removed in a total pull out just like the way it was done in Gaza).
