Morte on 11/1/2009 at 18:02
Quote Posted by Papy
Just out of curiosity, what would would you do if you were Israel's prime minister? Would you just say to your people : "yes, from time to time so of us will die, but as the number of you who will die is insignificant we won't do anything". Is that what you would do?
Yes. Grin and bear with it, while working with the moderates to rebuilding the infrastructure and economy in the Palestinian territories until the extremists are marginalized. Deal with terrorists through police action rather than military. It would be politically difficult of course, but that's no excuse. It's the more strategically sensible thing to do. What they're doing right now doesn't work.
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Just to give you some insights, Israel face two huge problems that media rarely talk about. The first one is a demographic problem. In 2006, Jewish women had a fecundity rate of 2.8 children, while Arab women (living in Israel) were at 4.0. In the Gaza Strip and other Palestinian territories, the fecundity rate was 5.7 children per woman (I just use google to get those numbers, so take them with a grain of salt). This means in the long run, unless something is done, Israel will become an Islamic state.
I'm aware of the demographic problems. They could lay down the ground work and turn it into a proper secular democracy, but that's not going to happen. Which is why I'm having doubts about Israel surviving in the long run, frankly. The moment there's any danger of a vote remove its status as a Jewish state, it's back to second class citizenship for the Arabs and probably war again. It's going to wear them down eventually, unless they radically change their posture in the region.
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The second problem, and the real reason why a Palestinian state and peace is impossible for now, is water. Right now, Israel and the Palestinian territories are already using fossil water. In fact, without some control from Israel, the Arab population would just take whatever is available now, without giving a shit about long term consequences.
So... What would you do?
Yeah, the ghettos, the starving, the ruined economy, it's all for their own good!
The environmental bit is obviously hugely important, but maybe they could bring water into the negotiation table as a condition for peace then? It's never going to become *less* of an issue, so if they don't, we're back to genocide/displacement as the only solution.
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You may not agree with Raul Castro's political view, but his government is pretty much a normal (communist) government despite the US. Hamas are just massive shits. Blaming other governments for who they are is just bullshit.
My point was that it's perhaps a bit much to expect them to come to you with their grievances if your first act towards them is to declare that they have no legitimacy. And really, you don't see Israel going to the UN either, do you?
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Just out of curiosity, do you think the US response to 9/11 was incredibly disproportionate? After all, 4000 deaths is not much, right? What do you think the US should have done?
Yes.
Going into the Afghanistan was probably justified when they refused to turn Osama over (although how that was handled was a fuckup), but creating a massive bureaucracy, those ridiculous color codes, declaring War On [CONCEPT], institutionalizing torture, violating the constitution, all that jazz? Probably a bit much.
Stitch on 11/1/2009 at 19:14
Quote Posted by Papy
That's pretty much what happens in a war. What's your point?
My point basically can be summed up as "things over there sure are shitty :("
But feel free to keep injecting the political motivations of aid workers, I'm sure it will do wonders for your argument!
Papy on 11/1/2009 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Morte
Yes. Grin and bear with it, while working with the moderates to rebuilding the infrastructure and economy in the Palestinian territories until the extremists are marginalized. Deal with terrorists through police action rather than military.
This is a wonderful thing to say, but unfortunately this also completely empty and disconnected talk. Right now, the moderates are a minority and have very little power. Working with them would simply be a waste of time since nothing concrete could be done. As long as Hamas is in power, the best you can do is plan for something hoping it could be implemented one day. Anything concrete will be blocked because the radicals, who are in power, don't want peace. I guess you can hope for the Palestinian population to abandon their Islamic ideas, but considering that radical Islam is growing even in countries with better living standard and less hatred for their neighbor, it would be surprising if that would happen without something major (which is precisely what Israel is trying to do : show Palestinians what it means to choose radical Islam and Hamas).
Anyway, rebuilding the Palestinian economy is pretty much wishful thinking, unless you're thinking massive investment, something Israel can't afford alone, and a very large time frame. The region doesn't have enough natural resources (mainly water) for the amount of population and the large majority of Palestinians do not have the education and technical knowledge to sustain a modern economy. They are extremely poor people living in a place which can't offer the resources necessary for the kind of economy they could build. The worst is those people are mostly kids who were raised manipulated by some assholes who were using them for their political agenda. They now think all is the fault of Israel. They think the Israeli engineer is successful because he is Israeli, not because he is an engineer. They don't see the value of advanced education and hard work. They think that if Israel was not oppressing them, they would magically become rich and have a good life. This is sad to say, but peace is not possible. One side must win. You can choose one or the other, but you can't hope for both to live happily ever after. So which side do you choose?
Oh, and by the way, a good number of Israeli are also religious retards who don't want peace either.
Quote Posted by Stitch
My point basically can be summed up as "things over there sure are shitty :("
Duh!
Nameless Voice on 11/1/2009 at 20:46
Quote Posted by Papy
Just out of curiosity, what would would you do if you were Israel's prime minister? Would you just say to your people : "yes, from time to time so of us will die, but as the number of you who will die is insignificant we won't do anything". Is that what you would do?
A difficult question, but the "right" thing to do would be to try to arrest the terrorists and come to a peaceful solution with the reasonable people, rather than just killing 10+ civilians for every one of mine that was killed.
Quote Posted by Papy
In 2006, Jewish women had a fecundity rate of 2.8 children, while Arab women (living in Israel) were at 4.0. In the Gaza Strip and other Palestinian territories, the fecundity rate was 5.7 children per woman (I just use google to get those numbers, so take them with a grain of salt). This means in the long run, unless something is done, Israel will become an Islamic state.
Semantic point: A Jewish woman is a woman who follow a religion; an Arabic woman is a member of a Semitic people, not necessarily Muslim. Since I'm sure many of the Jewish people of Israel are Arabic, I'll assume you meant Muslim.
I very, very strongly disagree with the idea of
any country that has a religion as its basis. Having a large number of people who are of a different religion (e.g. Arabic) in your country will not make you lose your own religion (e.g. make you any less Jewish). The whole idea of a state founded exclusively around religion is preposterous and discriminatory in this day and age.
That's like Ireland deciding to throw out all the Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc. because they're afraid that they might take over the country with their religion (though that's not a good example because Catholics generally have a higher birth rate than Protestants, at least).
Quote Posted by Papy
Having said that, when you choose to elect a terrorist group as your government, you should be prepared to see the rest of the world say a big fuck you. Being democratically elected does not mean you can do whatever you want without retaliations.
If said government is willing to act like a government and negotate, rather than acting like terrorists, then they deserve the right to be recognised as a legitimate power to negotation
with.
Quote Posted by Papy
Just out of curiosity, do you think the US response to 9/11 was incredibly disproportionate? After all, 4000 deaths is not much, right? What do you think the US should have done?
Yes, I do. Most people in Europe do. And let's not even get started on Iraq, which was an attack without any justification at all.
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
If the Palestinians were genuinely interested in having their own state, coexisting with Israel, they would have had it by now. They've had multiple chances, going back to 1948, and they've refused every single time. Why?
Because every single "generous offer" made by the Israelis involved the Palestinians giving up more and more of their country and giving up what little useful land they had. None of them where ever what the Palestinians considered to be fair terms.
Here's a (
http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/Palestine-Shrinking.jpg) map. (I used to have a better one but I've no idea where I put that file...)
Also, the main thing that the Palestinians want from any peace treaty is the right for those Palestinians who were displaced and forced to leave their homes to have the right to return to their lands - something which Israel refuses to consider.
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
The Palestinians are a propaganda machine unlike anything the world has seen before - I honestly can't think of another group with such international support who has been caught multiple times creating fake news and, even worse, having it accepted as real by a large portion of the international community.
For some reason this makes me think of the Israelis publishing a video of Palestinians cheering shortly after the attacks on the twin towers, despite the fact that said video was recorded some time earlier and was not actually related to the attacks at all.
Zygoptera on 11/1/2009 at 21:01
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
If you can point out which part of it isn't accurate I'd like to know.
It would be easier to point out the bits which were accurate, tbh.
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It probably doesn't hurt that most of Israel's enemies have direct ties to Nazis in one way or another.
Post Proof Or Retract. Not links from Us-Israel.org or similar, ta muchly, as I shall be working in a lab with other people today, and I fear my laughter may disturb them.
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Or that the PLO has never changed their mission from the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew living there.
Incorrect, unless you're stuck in 1992.
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The PLO was founded by someone with no ties to Palestine (he was a native Egyptian)
The PLO was founded by a whole bunch of people, around 200 disparate groups IIRC. Its first chairman was a Lebanese and a compromise choice as former head of the Arab League. Yasser Arafat, who I presume you are talking about by the Egyptian reference, was born in Cairo (probable, though disputed) and spent a lot of his youth there, but his parents were Palestinian.
If you call him Egyptian then you had a Panamanian running for President a few months ago.
I was rather hoping you were trying for meta, or parody.
Kolya on 11/1/2009 at 21:23
Quote Posted by Papy
This is sad to say, but peace is not possible. One side must win.
Finally someone has a solution here.
Morte on 11/1/2009 at 21:31
Quote Posted by Papy
This is a wonderful thing to say, but unfortunately this also completely empty and disconnected talk. Right now, the moderates are a minority and have very little power. Working with them would simply be a waste of time since nothing concrete could be done. As long as Hamas is in power, the best you can do is plan for something hoping it could be implemented one day.
Well they should try massive bombing campaigns then, I hear that's a great way to make the population less radicalized and get moderates back in power.
Fingernail on 11/1/2009 at 21:55
send them all to madagascar using the captured british fleet
Aja on 11/1/2009 at 21:56
I read the first page.
Then I skipped to this page.
Piglick, you're a genuis.
Stitch on 11/1/2009 at 22:10
i can see you honed your debating skills on the internet sir
