Nameless Voice on 10/1/2009 at 16:33
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
If people would just hurry up and make the distinction between "Israel" and "the Jews" a little more concrete, there'd be far less of this bullshit pussyfooting around every time Israel spazzes out like this. I always get the feeling that no one wants to tell the Israelis to sit down or be sat down because the subtext (perceived or real) is some kind of strawman anti-semitism.
Well, the Israelis do that on purpose, trying to make everyone think that saying against anything their country is a racially-motivated (or, religiously-motivated) attack on them because they are Jewish. (And the large number of Jewish people who themselves criticise Israel are accused of being "self-hating Jews").
Jason Moyer on 11/1/2009 at 09:40
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Well, the Israelis do that on purpose, trying to make everyone think that saying against anything their country is a racially-motivated (or, religiously-motivated) attack on them because they are Jewish. (And the large number of Jewish people who themselves criticise Israel are accused of being "self-hating Jews").
It probably doesn't hurt that most of Israel's enemies have direct ties to Nazis in one way or another. Or that the PLO has never changed their mission from the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew living there.
It's a pity that Abbas seems to have no control over his constituents, because he's the only leader the Palestinians have ever had who actually has ties to the region (as opposed to being from Egypt, Jordan, or Syria) and isn't a Nazi trainee/sympathizer.
Nameless Voice on 11/1/2009 at 12:37
That is the most incoherent, nonsensical post I have read in quite some time.
Kolya on 11/1/2009 at 12:44
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
Well, the Israelis do that on purpose, trying to make everyone think that saying against anything their country is a racially-motivated (or, religiously-motivated) attack on them because they are Jewish.
I think it's not so much that they consciously play the victim card but are seriously and historically paranoiac. And while this paranoia is often exaggerated ("Nazis are everywhere!") and leads to complete overreactions it doesn't help that they still do have a lot of enemies.
All the Israelis I ever met were personally really nice guys and gals, but when it came to politics and military (and it always comes to this) each of them started to sound like an ultra nationalistic right wing gun nut who lives in the fucking past. I don't envy them for their situation.
fett on 11/1/2009 at 14:26
I agree there's some paranoia, but you have to admit that if most of the other groups around you were calling for your complete annihilation, it would make you a bit fidgety too...
Papy on 11/1/2009 at 15:36
Quote Posted by fett
If Hamas had the blessing and backing of a major super-power like the U.S. they would (and I quote) "Erase Israel from the face of the earth." Israel has no such stated intentions (to my knowledge).
Israel, as a state or a government, doesn't openly have these intentions, but an important minority of Israeli, some of whom have a lot of political power, consider "Eretz Israel" has justification enough for... whatever it takes.
Quote Posted by Morte
Israel is a developed nation. People simply expect more of them.
You're right. I certainly expect more from an MIT engineer than from a retard who never finished high school. That's why I will have a tendency to criticize the MIT engineer more than the retard. That doesn't mean I will favor the retard over the MIT engineer in any way. Quite the contrary in fact.
Just out of curiosity, what would would you do if you were Israel's prime minister? Would you just say to your people : "yes, from time to time so of us will die, but as the number of you who will die is insignificant we won't do anything". Is that what you would do?
Just to give you some insights, Israel face two huge problems that media rarely talk about. The first one is a demographic problem. In 2006, Jewish women had a fecundity rate of 2.8 children, while Arab women (living in Israel) were at 4.0. In the Gaza Strip and other Palestinian territories, the fecundity rate was 5.7 children per woman (I just use google to get those numbers, so take them with a grain of salt). This means in the long run, unless something is done, Israel will become an Islamic state.
The second problem, and the real reason why a Palestinian state and peace is impossible for now, is water. Right now, Israel and the Palestinian territories are already using fossil water. In fact, without some control from Israel, the Arab population would just take whatever is available now, without giving a shit about long term consequences.
So... What would you do?
Quote Posted by Morte
Not that Hamas aren't massive shits, but how can you reasonably expect them to act like a normal government under those conditions?
You may not agree with Raul Castro's political view, but his government is pretty much a normal (communist) government despite the US. Hamas are just massive shits. Blaming other governments for who they are is just bullshit.
Quote Posted by DDL
Doesn't that mean you have to redefine the whole concept of "democratically elected government?"
As far as I know, the US or any other country didn't invade Palestine to force a regime change. So no, they didn't redefine the whole concept of "democratically elected government". Having said that, when you choose to elect a terrorist group as your government, you should be prepared to see the rest of the world say a big fuck you. Being democratically elected does not mean you can do whatever you want without retaliations.
As for what is Hamas, from an individual point of view, some of its members are moderates who are ready to accept a long term cease-fire (only a cease-fire though, not a definitive peace treaty), some are extremists who just want every Jews out of middle-east one way or another. Both are part of the "government".
Take a look at their (
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) charter if you want to know what is Hamas.
Quote Posted by Stitch
One of the surviving aid workers was on NPR talking about how the Israeli forces knew they were there, gave them the green light, and then BLAM
So you think aid workers are honest and objective? Think again. They are as politically motivated as anyone else, if not more.
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
This is not to absolve the Palestinians entirely in every case, but come
on. Nine times in ten this is a case of an annoying toddler thwopping you in the nuts with a toy car and you decide the appropriate response is to kick the shit out of the child until it's unconscious.
I'm sure the Hamas and other Islamic groups would be glad with an eye for an eye kind response from Israel. As there are more Arabs than Jews in the region, it would mean they could easily kill every Jews.
Just out of curiosity, do you think the US response to 9/11 was incredibly disproportionate? After all, 4000 deaths is not much, right? What do you think the US should have done?
Tocky on 11/1/2009 at 16:46
I really don't think you want the answer to that from this forum. A lot of people think we should have taken the kick to the nuts and apologized for bringing it on ourselves.
I was agreeing with you until the aid worker thing. Sure there are biases among aid workers but I don't think any of them care enough to get themselves blown up. All militaries fuck up.
Jason Moyer on 11/1/2009 at 17:08
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
That is the most incoherent, nonsensical post I have read in quite some time.
If you can point out which part of it isn't accurate I'd like to know. The PLO was founded by someone with no ties to Palestine (he was a native Egyptian) and with direct ties to Nazis (as in actual, "leaders of Germany, killed 6 million jews, lost WWII" Nazis). Abbas, on the other hand, can stake a claim to being an actual Palestinian and AFAIK his history doesn't include trying to exterminate the "Jewish problem".
If the Palestinians were genuinely interested in having their own state, coexisting with Israel, they would have had it by now. They've had multiple chances, going back to 1948, and they've refused every single time. Why? Because their cause is the extermination of Israel, not Palestinian sovereignty. The Palestinians are a propaganda machine unlike anything the world has seen before - I honestly can't think of another group with such international support who has been caught multiple times creating fake news and, even worse, having it accepted as real by a large portion of the international community.
Stitch on 11/1/2009 at 17:09
Quote Posted by Papy
So you think aid workers are honest and objective? Think again. They are as politically motivated as anyone else, if not more.
You'll notice I said nothing about them being honest or objective so much as being FUCKING SHOT.
Papy on 11/1/2009 at 17:17
Quote Posted by Tocky
I don't think any of them care enough to get themselves blown up.
Although they obviously do care enough to risk their lives, that's not what I meant. I meant they tend to view and interpret fact in a way that fits their own political agenda. I meant they won't hesitate to lie if they think it's the "right" thing to do. Here's a scenario : they go at a checkpoint and talk to a low ranking officer. The lieutenant there don't know much about the situation and say "there's nothing planned, you can go ahead". Then a few minutes, someone higher in the food chain decide to launch a strike. Do you really think that colonel will ask the lieutenant if there are humanitarian aids? And even if he does, do you think he will cancel the strike because of those two aids? That would be absurd. You don't stop a military operation because of two people.
Now, after that fact, how do you think those aids will present the information? Well, they'll probably try to accuse the military of voluntarily killing them even if they know its not the truth at all.
Quote Posted by Stitch
You'll notice I said nothing about them being honest or objective so much as being FUCKING SHOT.
That's pretty much what happens in a war. What's your point?
