Bucky Seifert on 21/10/2017 at 17:49
Quote Posted by icemann
Dishonored 2 and Deus Ex HR didnt sell well? WHAT. What is wrong with people. Both of those games are fantastic.
DXHR did sell well, well enough to get a sequel. It was that which didn't sell well, even ignoring Squeenix's notoriously absurd sales expectations.
Jason Moyer on 21/10/2017 at 17:54
Squeenix sabotaged DXMD with the microtransaction shit. I'm sure complaints about the story feeling like the middle of a trilogy would persist, but there was backlash from the outset because of the microtransactions that the publisher forced on them at the last hour.
Bucky Seifert on 21/10/2017 at 22:01
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Squeenix sabotaged DXMD with the microtransaction shit. I'm sure complaints about the story feeling like the middle of a trilogy would persist, but there was backlash from the outset because of the microtransactions that the publisher forced on them at the last hour.
IIRC, an anonymous source from EM said Squeenix told them to put it in a month or so before the game was finished. By then they already balanced the game's progression so the microtransactions were completely pointless.
Jason Moyer on 21/10/2017 at 22:52
Yeah, it's bullshit that EM has to suffer for Squeenix's incessant meddling. The game was perfectly balanced without microtransactions or pre-order bonuses, but that doesn't mean much for all the blowhards who immediately downvote all that stuff on Steam or Amazon.
Tony_Tarantula on 22/10/2017 at 18:25
Honestly, don't think I see much of a revival in the immediate future. The problem is twofold: modern development teams and processes (ie. both the people and the systems) have neither the interest nor the ability to develop gameplay systems that have any significant depth to them, and it's only a small niche of people who have the attention span to actually play through a sneaker that's more involved than "Press x to hide behind object". It's kind of like the movie industry where there's plenty of flashiness but there's a pervasive mediocrity where nothing deeper than a puddle is able to gain any traction.
There's a reason that the only stealth game that actually features things like sound propation game out 20 freaking years ago, and the only ones that do are indie games that don't have the resources to put out something well polished, and it's largely because of this near complete lack of craft in the industry that I don't really play anymore besides the odd Rocket League or MechWarrior Online match.
Bucky Seifert on 22/10/2017 at 19:19
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Yeah, it's bullshit that EM has to suffer for Squeenix's incessant meddling. The game was perfectly balanced without microtransactions or pre-order bonuses, but that doesn't mean much for all the blowhards who immediately downvote all that stuff on Steam or Amazon.
It really is, because I can tell from all their interviews that EM are a talented and passionate group of people who really want to make games worthy of the Deus Ex name. It makes it all the more sad that Squeenix undoes all their good will and effort with horrible decisions.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
modern development teams and processes (ie. both the people and the systems) have neither the interest nor the ability to develop gameplay systems that have any significant depth to them
Speaking as someone who is in the games industry, claiming they don't have the ability to make games with any significant depth to them is a rather condescending view to have imo. There are lots of developers who are very talented and want to make games with depth to them. The issue is more often then not publishers like Squeenix meddling in, or just straight up telling them it has to appeal to a wide audience. The problem is that most publishers never seem to realize that if you make something that appeals to as wide an audience as possible more often than not, with a few exceptions, results in a mediocre experience for everyone.
Actually also realized sometimes you get cases where games do have a lot of depth to them, but it just does a really bad job at relaying the depth it has to the player, e.g. Skyrim. Mostly because Bethesda has from day 1 been awful at UI design. But, now I'm just rambling again :eww:
Tony_Tarantula on 22/10/2017 at 21:52
Exactly, hence why I said "people and systems" rather than "people". The type of personality that is suited to making a great game like the TTLG classics is almost by definition not the type of personality who is capable of managing the corporate management structures. The type of personality that is good at making boring franchise sequels like World War 2 FPS sequel # 23 are usually very comfortable within those systems. Since those systems decide things like how resources are allocated between competing projects, release dates are set, and who the game will be marketed to we all know what gets produced: highly derivative, cash cow franchise games. Bureaucratic systems tend to reward mediocre people pleasers and large gaming publishers are no exception.
henke on 23/10/2017 at 06:45
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Honestly, don't think I see much of a revival in the immediate future. The problem is twofold: modern development teams and processes (ie. both the people and the systems) have neither the interest nor the ability to develop gameplay systems that have any significant depth to them, and it's only a small niche of people who have the attention span to actually play through a sneaker that's more involved than "Press x to hide behind object".
It's true that realistic sound propagation and light-based visibility are rare these days, but the actual gameplay in the Thief games really isn't
that complex. "Hide in safe spot>observe enemy movements>form plan and execute it" is the same gameplay loop as pretty much any modern stealth game. It doesn't take a genius to play it, so let's not suck our own dicks
too much for having mastered it.
Thirith on 23/10/2017 at 08:11
I very much agree with that. The Thief games are great and have some of the best level design, but they're not the gaming equivalent of Finnegan's Wake of Last Year at Marienbad. They don't have to be, but this tendency to pat ourselves on the shoulder for our fantastic, sophisticated tastes, is rather masturbatory. I've seen the same thing in other groups of fans of something whose appeal is somewhat nichey: this need to confirm that, hey, we're better than those filthy mainstreamites because our tastes are so much better. After a while it all sounds rather insecure.
Bucky Seifert on 23/10/2017 at 19:14
Quote Posted by henke
It's true that realistic sound propagation and light-based visibility are rare these days, but the actual gameplay in the Thief games really isn't
that complex. "Hide in safe spot>observe enemy movements>form plan and execute it" is the same gameplay loop as pretty much any modern stealth game. It doesn't take a genius to play it, so let's not suck our own dicks
too much for having mastered it.
And while we're being real, here, while it may not have quite the same light/dark and sound depth, Metal Gear Solid V is still a much more advanced stealth game than Thief 1/2. Also in playing so much of Thief I started to wonder whether the AI really does take into account every single level of visibly seen in the light gem. It could all be just for show, and really there are only 3 or so levels.
