YuSeF on 11/11/2008 at 01:51
Quote Posted by Ostriig
Is this guy for real? In terms of accuracy, maxing the weapons skills in DX would allow you to take full advantage of your player skill with a mouse, it wouldn't spawn in some sort of magical auto-aim to compensate for your being made of pure suck. And it was a pretty good meld between FPS and RPG mechanics.
I still don't like the sound of this, but I'll reserve judgment for until I actually see what they turn out to be and how they work in-game. I'm really opposed to the whole idea of being thrown into third-person, though, and I hope the game will offer me enough interesting alternatives to those specific augs.
Why does this reek of compromise to me? The sacrifice of something beautiful on an the altar of mass-market appeal? I know why they do it, and I understand where they're coming from, but I really wish it didn't have to be like this. I can't help but look at CDProjekt and drool at their (
http://ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123741) claims of being successful while addressing a more limited demographic.
Gunther, Anna, Walton, basically boss fights, indeed. But, considering we all pretty much know that, heywood makes a good point - why specify that you're
adding boss fights? Just a miscommunication, or are we talking about a different kind of "bosses"?
lol There you are pointing out so much negative about DX but in another thread you bash me for pointing out the same types of negatives. But thanks for proving my point again. This game is gunna be some console designers wet dream.
Ostriig on 11/11/2008 at 02:24
Quote Posted by heywood
Sure. You can hurt him and he will run away. Unlike Anna, who will fight to her death, Gunther gives up pretty easily. That's why I think the designers intended to allow you to let him live.
Heh. Never thought of that. I should look up an old save and try it for giggles.
Quote Posted by YuSeF
lol There you are pointing out so much negative about DX but in another thread you bash me for pointing out the same types of negatives. But thanks for proving my point again. This game is gunna be some console designers wet dream.
I've quite clearly explained the difference in the thread you mentioned, and frankly, it's already rather stupendous that you still somehow manage not to get it. Do try and keep the the crap in
that thread, though, or better yet, just drop it altogether.
Chade on 11/11/2008 at 02:41
This ancient article should be, I hope, interesting to people who insist on believing that diferences between DX and DX3's design happen because the designers "must not be fans of DX". I think it calls bullshit on that point regardless of whether the central assertion is true or not.
(
http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/05/deus_triple_ex.html)
Silkworm on 11/11/2008 at 17:33
Quote Posted by Ostriig
I don't think I quite follow you there. Yes, apparently players have found ways of avoiding certain moments that would lead to a final confrontation between them and one of the DX "bosses", but those were more or less by exploiting certain "shortcomings" of the level design, they weren't part of the initial plan the devs had for the game. .
Bullshit. The initial fights with Anna Navarre, Gunther, Simons, and Maggie Chow can all be avoided or talked around. Furthermore the final fights with Gunther and Navarre can be won in dialogue without firing a shot. The designers of Deus Ex have explicitly said that their ideal was to make it possible to beat the game without killing anyone at all (which is why characters are never awarded skill points for defeating anyone).
Of the nonhuman bosses (the giant spider in A51, the giant mechs in Paris), they can also be avoided or subverted by hacking or avoidance.
I agree that they are bossfights, just not as silly and contrived as the ones in, say, BioShock.
Matthew on 11/11/2008 at 18:02
Huh, I'd always thought Anna's death was an intended one. You learn something new every day.
DDL on 11/11/2008 at 18:09
Quote Posted by Matthew
Huh, I'd always thought Anna's death was an intended one. You learn something new every day.
Her death is by far the hardest to avoid, though...and does involve exploiting the DX AI slightly*.
*Ok, a lot.
Matthew on 11/11/2008 at 19:30
Yeah, I knew that she could be manoeuvred into opening the UNATCO door for you, but I always assumed that was an exploit rather than a purposeful choice inserted into the game.
Ostriig on 11/11/2008 at 19:32
Quote Posted by Silkworm
Bullshit. The initial fights with Anna Navarre, Gunther, Simons, and Maggie Chow can all be avoided or talked around. Furthermore the final fights with Gunther and Navarre can be won in dialogue without firing a shot. The designers of Deus Ex have explicitly said that their ideal was to make it possible to beat the game without killing anyone at all (which is why characters are never awarded skill points for defeating anyone).
Of the nonhuman bosses (the giant spider in A51, the giant mechs in Paris), they can also be avoided or subverted by hacking or avoidance.
Yes, the
initial fights. My point was that sooner or later, you do have to confront these characters, though it's now clear I was wrong about having to kill Gunther and Simons. And, no, you can't beat the game without killing anyone as per design intention. Whether you use bullets or a killphrase, you still have to
kill Anna, it's just that you can do it without a fight. Unless, of course, you trick the game. So if their ideal was to make the game, through its own intended features, possible to complete without "killing" anyone, they almost made it.
Quote:
I agree that they are bossfights, just not as silly and contrived as the ones in, say, BioShock.
Completely true, and I never suggested otherwise.
And there's no need to call bullshit, I was simply asking Malleus to clarify something I didn't understand, I wasn't in frothing-at-the-mouth-mode.
DDL on 11/11/2008 at 20:31
You could always let lebedev kill anna....which results in a death, but not a kill by you. Admittedly you need to weaken her first (LAM against the door trick?), so it's still hacky, but hey.
The gas grenade trick is the most...'fitting' of the ways to do it, I guess (she doesn't, in fact, respond to gas at all, but she still tries to run away from gas grenades -or the clouds of gas they make-: if you time it right, she'll run away by opening the exit door).
Ostriig on 11/11/2008 at 21:09
Interesting point about Lebedev. But yeah, still doesn't strike me as an intended feature, but rather a neat trick the players came up with. What's funny is that it would so beautifully fit with JC answering to Manderly "Lebedev. A surprise attack." and not be completely lying for once. :p
