Chade on 29/9/2013 at 11:15
While we're keeping score, I thought I'd note which complaints I agree with and which I don't. Didn't bother to write out a list of positives, but I should do that some time.
Complaints I not only disagree with but actually think are positive changes:
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't like the idea of timed sequences.
(On the assumption that any of these appearing are simply one opional way to enter, I think it's an improvement to have an entrance that requires a genune change in gameplay.)I don't like the silent fast swoop ability.
(Could certainly make the game too easy, but if it's balanced well, I think it will be a nice touch.)I don't like the idea of going into a swordfight with a blackjack.
(This is a great improvement precisely because you wouldn't.)I don't like that they are dropping some of the more fantastical elements of Thief.
(I like the direction they're taking magic)Complaints about things that just don't worry me.
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't like QTEs, cinematic action scenes, and over the top violence.
(insignificant fraction of game, and don't expect to use any violence)I don't like the game switching to third person view and kill cams.
(insignificant fraction of games, don't expect to use any kill cam abilities)I don't like the hand-holding elements such as the minimap, loot glint, inner voice delivered directions, and focus assisted superhuman abilities such as seeing through walls.
(don't expect to have this stuff enabled, don't expect Garrett's lines to be too different either, but not 100% sure about that)I don't like the hands constantly in view.
(this is no longer true)I don't like how Garrett looks (or even that he's so prominently in the picture).
(I strongly agreed with this months ago, but his looks have really improved lately, I have no problems with him now.)Complaints I may or may not agree with, I could imagine it either way.
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't like the shroud.
(not sure whether it will be annoying in practice)I don't like RPG progression in a Thief game.
(reserving judgment till I know what you can upgrade, and I think xp points are a potentially valuable mechanic)I don't like that you are limited by invisible rails when navigating high places.
(not sure how it will feel in practice)I don't like that they are bringing in modern swearing.
(not sure how it will sound in practice)I don't like that they have dropped Stephen Russell for no good reason.
(I'm not terribly anti or pro this new voice actor yet, don't really expect to end up with strong opinions)I don't like that there is not going to be any of Eric Brosius's awesome ambiance.
(no idea what the music will sound like yet)Complaints I agree with!
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't like that there's only a ternary light gem.
I don't like that you can't jump and lean freely.
I don't like that you can shoot the rope arrows only at specific spots.
jay pettitt on 29/9/2013 at 13:19
See, I don't think the 'ternary' light gem is a big problem. Firstly, I'm not convinced that light gem only has or will only have three states. And secondly, 3 states (well hidden/partially hidden/well lit) is probably all you need anyway. Maybe more states is better, but 3 will do at a push. Heck, I'd be fine with no light gem.
I don't (hypothetically at any rate) mind the context sensitive controls. As long as there's scope in the system that they do have to play the game well then whatever. Push comes to shove, the controls that the original Thief games shipped with were very crude approximations of movement and maybe (maybe) it's fair game to increase the vocabulary of available moves and make them contextual. Happy to wait and see on that one.
The new Rope arrows do seem a shame though. Retrograde in both letter and spirit compared to the original Thief games. But then, T3 didn't have them at all and still managed to deliver The Shalebridge Cradle - one of the most notable experiences in videogaming full stop and classic Thief. So while I agree that the new rope arrows just seem naff, I'll not lose sleep over it. There are more important things.
Goldmoon Dawn on 29/9/2013 at 16:37
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
The new Rope arrows do seem a shame though.
Yep, no more free form exploration. Exploration, yes. Free form though? Guess again...
For me, rope arrows do seem a shame as well. As well as the fabled jump/swoop dilemna all the way down to a finely tuned combat system that shelves any noble idea of enhancing a stealth experience.
Contextual movement puts the final nail in the coffin of free form exploration game play. You see, due to its masterful free form 1st person physics engine, Dark Project had many things to discover that the designers did not specifically intend. That sense of awe and wonder has kept this community alive ever since.
In NuThief, there is nothing to be discovered, as the designers have placed each and every "secret" you will be fed, on the predetermined path that guides you there. If you enjoy this kind of game play, then you are in for a super treat.
My heart is torn though. As lucrative as this new package seems, I still long for the days of free form exploration game play. Deadly Shadow maimed poor old Garrretts hips and now with NuThief he finds himself strapped into the wheelchair.
Thief: The Dark Project
:ebil:
Chade on 29/9/2013 at 22:34
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
See, I don't think the 'ternary' light gem is a big problem ... 3 states (well hidden/partially hidden/well lit) is probably all you need anyway. Maybe more states is better, but 3 will do at a push.
Yes, I agree that it won't be some fatal flaw in the game or anything. Three states is enough to work with.
I do find, though, that I pay attention to the fine-grained states when I play thief. Not so much on the brighter end, but on the darker end I find I pay a fair bit of attention to them. So I think it is a genuine complaint.
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
I don't (hypothetically at any rate) mind the context sensitive controls. As long as there's scope in the system that they do have to play the game well then whatever. Push comes to shove, the controls that the original Thief games shipped with were very crude approximations of movement and maybe (maybe) it's fair game to increase the vocabulary of available moves and make them contextual. Happy to wait and see on that one.
I agree that the context sensitive controls don't have to be a disaster. The most important thing to my mind, is that I can look around the level, and any route I think I should be able to take, I can. If the system can deliver that, it will be ok.
But no matter what they do, I think I will miss the ability to choose whatever movement action I want at any time.
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
The new Rope arrows do seem a shame though. Retrograde in both letter and spirit compared to the original Thief games. But then, T3 didn't have them at all and still managed to deliver The Shalebridge Cradle - one of the most notable experiences in videogaming full stop and classic Thief.
Indeed. That goes for a lot of complaints.
At the end of the day, Thief is a stealth game. A classic thief level isn't one with a million rope arrow opportunities, or a huge underwater section, or any of that stuff. A classic thief level is one that uses stealth gameplay to generate an unforgettable experience. If you look at RttHC or LotP or The Cradle, they don't have the best gameplay, nor the most exploration. But what they do have in common is a lot of emotional leverage out of the act of sneaking. Stealth and fear go together like hand and glove. As for LotP, that game has you flitting in and out of people's houses like a shadow in the breeze.
If they have good stealth and good level designers, they can create a great thief game.
Starker on 29/9/2013 at 22:58
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't like the idea of timed sequences. (On the assumption that any of these appearing are simply one opional way to enter, I think it's an improvement to have an entrance that requires a genune change in gameplay.)
I don't like the silent fast swoop ability. (Could certainly make the game too easy, but if it's balanced well, I think it will be a nice touch.)
Rooftop races, swooping and running from fire change the pacing to more action-oriented gameplay. To you, it may be positive, but it goes against one of my "Thief core gameplay pillars".
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't like the idea of going into a swordfight with a blackjack. (This is a great improvement precisely because you wouldn't.)
It's silly and it changes Garrett's character to a more action-oriented super-hero type (so now he can dispatch armed trained guards with just a short stump of a club?). It's somewhat better than the dagger from TDS, though, as it was a thug's weapon.
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't like QTEs, cinematic action scenes, and over the top violence. (insignificant fraction of game, and don't expect to use any violence)
I don't like the game switching to third person view and kill cams. (insignificant fraction of games, don't expect to use any kill cam abilities)
I don't like the hand-holding elements such as the minimap, loot glint, inner voice delivered directions, and focus assisted superhuman abilities such as seeing through walls. (don't expect to have this stuff enabled, don't expect Garrett's lines to be too different either, but not 100% sure about that)
These "insignificant" and optional things nevertheless have an impact for tone, pacing, and gameplay. Even only 10% of gameplay is dedicated to cinematic action it's still 10% too much and going by the logic "it's okay because it's optional" it would make it okay to have guns in Garret's arsenal, because you don't have to use them or have the ability to slit the throats of unconscious guards, with a special animation, because you don't have to do it. Also, we don't really know to what degree focus will really be optional, considering that it is tied to the story.
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't like the hands constantly in view. (this is no longer true)
Well, I don't like them in view half of the time either.
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't like the shroud. (not sure whether it will be annoying in practice)
I don't like RPG progression in a Thief game. (reserving judgment till I know what you can upgrade, and I think xp points are a potentially valuable mechanic)
I don't like that you are limited by invisible rails when navigating high places. (not sure how it will feel in practice)
I don't like that they are bringing in modern swearing. (not sure how it will sound in practice)
I don't like that they have dropped Stephen Russell for no good reason. (I'm not terribly anti or pro this new voice actor yet, don't really expect to end up with strong opinions)
I don't like that there is not going to be any of Eric Brosius's awesome ambiance. (no idea what the music will sound like yet)
I'm basing this from what I have seen and heard. My opinions are not set in stone. It's just the current state of affairs.
Starker on 29/9/2013 at 23:16
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
See, I don't think the 'ternary' light gem is a big problem. Firstly, I'm not convinced that light gem only has or will only have three states. And secondly, 3 states (well hidden/partially hidden/well lit) is probably all you need anyway. Maybe more states is better, but 3 will do at a push. Heck, I'd be fine with no light gem.
I'm going to <s>borrow</s> shamelessly steal (
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/235216577476171231) an analogy from Josh Sawyer and say it's like having your speedometer replaced with a traffic light.
Chade on 29/9/2013 at 23:57
Quote Posted by Starker
Rooftop races, swooping and running from fire change the pacing to more action-oriented gameplay. To you, it may be positive, but it goes against one of my "Thief core gameplay pillars".
For the record, the fire sequence wasn't what I was thinking of, I assumed that one was in the cinematic action sequence bucket. I was just thinking of the race to get to the door by midnight, or find another way in.
Quote Posted by Starker
It's silly and it changes Garrett's character to a more action-oriented super-hero type (so now he can dispatch armed trained guards with just a short stump of a club?).
I can understand many of your concerns, and agree with some of them. This, though, is a completely ridiculous thing to say. In no world does switching from sword to blackjack make Garrett an action-orientated super-hero.
Quote Posted by Starker
Also, we don't really know to what degree focus will really be optional, considering that it is tied to the story.
EM repeatedly state is is completely optional and the game is balanced to be played without it. There is currently no reason to disbelieve them (beyond generic skepticism anyway).
Starker on 30/9/2013 at 00:30
Quote Posted by Chade
I can understand many of your concerns, and agree with some of them. This, though, is a completely ridiculous thing to say. In no world does switching from sword to blackjack make Garrett an action-orientated super-hero.
Which is not what I said. Switching to a different weapon with a different reach and speed is at the very least going to affect the tone and the feel of the combat. Clumsy as the swordfights were in the original games, there was something weirdly chivalric about them that beating people in the face with a club does not necessarily live up to.
GodzillaX8 on 9/10/2013 at 18:32
I have no problem with them adding more ways to play the game. I think it's faulty logic to criticize the game for opening itself up to different styles of play. One of the main reasons people loved Deus Ex was that you could play it whatever way suited you best. I don't doubt that this game will have a satisfying stealth component, but if they want to make it more accessible to people who haven't been lurking in the shadows for 15 years, I'm okay with that.
Quote Posted by Starker
loot glint, inner voice delivered directions
Unless I misunderstand your post, hasn't Thief always had those?
Also, I don't have any problems with the new voice actor. Hang me if you want but I think he sounds just fine.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/10/2013 at 21:53
No, Deadly Shadow invented the stupid Loot Glint. Also, the previous three Thief games were free movement exploration games, the new Thief is contextual movement only. That kinda ruins everything there buddy...
