GodzillaX8 on 12/10/2013 at 03:52
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't want the exact same game, I want something that is better than the old games, or at least equal to them in some way. Thief had a great formula and I would want it improved, not thrown out and replaced with modern stuff.
I don't honestly think they intended on "throwing out" the original formula. They have a ton of what made the original games great present in this new game, it's just also got a more modern design approach, which I guess some people might not like, but honestly I've enjoyed the last couple reboots they've done, so I have a hard time imagining I won't like this game. I'm also kind of confused what they could do that people here would even consider an "improvement". It seems like every change they've made is being ripped apart by almost everyone here.
Quote Posted by Starker
Things like restricting freedom of movement, reducing player agency, and introducing metagame elements to a series that aimed for direct simulation are not new and innovative. They are not improvements on the old mechanics.
The movement thing I can understand being a bit annoying, but certainly not to the point that the game is awful because of it.
I don't really understand how player agency is lessened in the new game based on what we know so far, could you be more specific?
Quote Posted by Starker
In fact, a lot of the stuff that has been introduced smacks of homogenisation -- for example the focus stuff, RPG progression, and upgrading your weapons are what many games do these days.
They're also things that Looking Glass and their offspring implemented, such as System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. I don't really see how this is inherently a bad thing for Thief to inherit, to be honest. :confused:
LoucMachine on 12/10/2013 at 06:48
Well, If you see the new thief as a ''paid fan-made campaign running on unreal engine with AAA bujet'', It actually would score pretty cool imho :)
I feel better now..
Starker on 12/10/2013 at 08:27
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I don't honestly think they intended on "throwing out" the original formula. They have a ton of what made the original games great present in this new game, it's just also got a more modern design approach, which I guess some people might not like, but honestly I've enjoyed the last couple reboots they've done, so I have a hard time imagining I won't like this game. I'm also kind of confused what they could do that people here would even consider an "improvement". It seems like every change they've made is being ripped apart by almost everyone here.
From my point of view, they haven't shown us anything good. I haven't liked a single thing and I've disliked several. Why make a Thief game if you are straying so far from the formula? Instead of slow immersive stealth, we get faster, actioned up gameplay with rooftop races and QTEs. Instead of exploring the levels on our own terms, we are now bound to rails. Even the things that made the series great thematically seem to have been done away with and there's no subtlety or minimalism left in it.
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
The movement thing I can understand being a bit annoying, but certainly not to the point that the game is awful because of it.
It harms the exploration and the stealth aspects of Thief. In any other game it might not be a big deal, but in a Thief game I would argue it kind of is. Instead of free form movement and climbing and careful creeping about we get swooping and some kind of on rails parkouring.
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
I don't really understand how player agency is lessened in the new game based on what we know so far, could you be more specific?
Well, by limiting player movement, for starters, and also look at all the contextual stuff. For example, you can't lean whereever you want to, you can't jump whereever you want to, the game prevents you from falling down from high places, Garrett automatically empties drawers, etc.
Quote Posted by GodzillaX8
They're also things that Looking Glass and their offspring implemented, such as System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. I don't really see how this is inherently a bad thing for Thief to inherit, to be honest. :confused:
Those things may make sense in an RPG, but the goal of Thief was to do away with much of the metagame stuff. In a direct simulation you don't want layers between the player and the gameplay. For example, RPG progression serves to replace player skill with character skill.
Here are a couple of excerpts from (
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131762/postmortem_thief_the_dark_project.php?print=1) Thief postmortem (I bolded parts for emphasis):
Quote:
The central game mechanic of Thief challenged the traditional form of the first-person 3D market. First-person shooters are fast-paced adrenaline rushes where the player possesses unusual speed and stamina, and an irresistible desire for conflict. The expert Thief player
moves slowly, avoids conflict, is penalized for killing people, and is entirely mortalThis ties in nicely with the talk about the differences behind action and stealth fantasies in the Extra Credits episode I linked to earlier and the incompatible pacing of those two. Faster, more action-oriented gameplay is in direct conflict with the patience and planning that stealth requires. Like they said in the video, stealth is about making waiting engaging, while action is about minimising waiting.
Quote:
Early on, the Thief plan was chock full of features and metagame elements:
lots of player tools and a modal inventory user interface to manage them; multiplayer cooperative, death-match and "Theft-match" modes;
a form of player extra-sensory perception; player capacity to combine world objects to create new tools; and branching mission structures. These and other "cool ideas" were correctly discarded.
Instead, we focused in on creating a single-player, linear,
mission-based game
centered exclusively around stealth, with a player toolset that fit within the constraints of an extension of the Quake user interface.
It was a very deliberate choice to drop those features. Not only did it allow for a more immersive simulation, it also created a very tight and focused design. Thief was for all intents and purposes a thieving simulator. Such direct simulation allows for emergent gameplay in a way that scripted games can only dream of and no amount of cutscenes can replace that.
Vojtechsonik on 12/10/2013 at 17:09
Nicely written, I agree with what you have said.
Tomi on 12/10/2013 at 17:25
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Brother Renzatic. Wouldst thou --
You have been a thorn in my side for far too long, Goldmoon Dawn. Your two worlds will be crushed - TTLG first, then Earth. I shall parade you before their conquered peoples as the fallen idol of a pathetic ideal. I banish you to the world of Thi4f! No one here knows of the... Goldmoon Dawn! BWAHAHAHAHA!!! :ebil:
Beleg Cúthalion on 14/10/2013 at 13:51
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Wouldst thou care to please elaborate, in fine detail, which of these "many valid options" have recieved more attention and development resources than the new complex combat system?
Combat is just hitting guys and hitting them better with Focus on. Distraction has been kept with arrows and throwable junk, sneaking has been empowered (no matter if for better or worse) by the Swoop. Hiding in lockers, lock-picking and frame-searching are stealth- and Thief-related aspects that were designed more sophisticated than before. If you consider those unforgiving guards in the new Thief game, boosting the combat mechanics seems just as balancing, especially with respect to the apparent (?) lack of flashbombs that are easy to drop.
GodzillaX8 on 16/10/2013 at 18:57
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Combat is just hitting guys and hitting them better with Focus on. Distraction has been kept with arrows and throwable junk, sneaking has been empowered (no matter if for better or worse) by the Swoop. Hiding in lockers, lock-picking and frame-searching are stealth- and Thief-related aspects that were designed more sophisticated than before. If you consider those unforgiving guards in the new Thief game, boosting the combat mechanics seems just as balancing, especially with respect to the apparent (?) lack of flashbombs that are easy to drop.
Just because something is different doesn't make it worse. Give it a real chance before you write it off.
And I'm sorry about the fate of Túrin Turambar.
Beleg Cúthalion on 16/10/2013 at 20:42
I didn't write it off, I tried to counter GMD's snide remark with something more factual. Aside from that, I played this game for about two hours unlike most people here. :p
GodzillaX8 on 17/10/2013 at 06:21
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
I didn't write it off, I tried to counter GMD's snide remark with something more factual. Aside from that, I played this game for about two hours unlike most people here. :p
Oh, I meant that post to be directed at people around here in general, not specifically to you. Sorry.
Beleg Cúthalion on 17/10/2013 at 07:31
No problem, I know the feeling when you want to reply without being logged in and only the reply-with-quote button is visible.
