D'Juhn Keep on 21/11/2009 at 09:18
I'm not sure which is more annoying, the people who say "Global warming? BUT IT'S COLD WHERE I AM QED" or those that say "Global Warming? marvelous, it's nice and sunny where I am!"
c) belboz's nonsense
Aerothorn on 21/11/2009 at 10:54
Belboz, if you can find convincing evidence of your "rotting ocean corpses" theory, I can pretty much promise you a spot on the front page of countless major newspapers.
Muzman on 22/11/2009 at 06:05
Quote Posted by Thief13x
This article is an interesting read at least and probably just the beginning from the sound of it. The beginning of a shit load of bickering if nothing else:p
(
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2009/11/the_hacked_climate_science_ema.php)
And here is that beginning
The first few comments from the conspiracy fan club are kinda hilarious. I think it's more that they're overjoyed to be winning the PR war with this blow. Now regular folks will have even less reason to look at how they lose every single argument on the actual science.
I was watching (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_germs_and_steel) Guns, Germs and Steel the other day and, as with most paleo-anthropologies, they point out that humans don't usually change gear completely until faced with utter anihilation (particularly those doing well out of current circumstances). So we can expect government, business etc to faff around like tommorow will be the same as yesterday until it's right outside their door.
Xorak on 22/11/2009 at 06:41
If there's more co2 in the air, does that not mean that the plants will be healthier, eating up more of the co2, producing more oxygen. Humans should actually in the end be healthier for the current period of warming, because we'll be eating animals fed on healthier plants.
I often sit back and have a good chuckle. Imagine if global warming was just a natural thing and we're here fighting against it, and imagine if we actually stop it and in that way screw over the generations that come after us, because the earth needs this current period of warming to keep itself in balance.
In the past, periods of warming were actually one of the main reasons for human evolution and expansion. There were at least two major periods when the Sahara Desert was transformed into grassland. The first time allowed early humans to develop bipedally, the second then allowed humans to spread into Asia and Europe.
The conversion to green technology should be done for the sake of future generations and for our own sake, but the absolutely, disgusting fear that some people mix into it should be left out completely. However, that's really the only way to get the full human-machine to come along for the ride.
:erg: I'm just along for the ride.
CCCToad on 22/11/2009 at 06:42
As tempting as it is to Rip into Thief13x, there really isn't anything to criticize because he's just posting a link. Hopefully somebody will follow up on that and tell us how much of the information is valid. Thing is, I"m just surprised at how little mainstream reaction the global warming movement gets for its mis-steps. If for example, a leading Bush official had been covered as saying "We need to consider using Anthrax on an American City to scare people into wanting to invade Iraq", support for the War would have evaporated overnight. There's been multiple cases of global warming cause advocates making such statements, and its gotten very little critical reaction beyond coverage on news sites.
I actually think it would help the cause of "emissions control" if the greenpeace cloud could be gagged.
edit: response to Xorak: There's some evidence to indicate that increased rarity of traditional energy resources could force a change faster than you'd think.
Muzman on 22/11/2009 at 07:04
Quote Posted by Xorak
If there's more co2 in the air, does that not mean that the plants will be healthier, eating up more of the co2, producing more oxygen. Humans should actually in the end be healthier for the current period of warming, because we'll be eating animals fed on healthier plants.
I often sit back and have a good chuckle. Imagine if global warming was just a natural thing and we're here fighting against it, and imagine if we actually stop it and in that way screw over the generations that come after us, because the earth needs this current period of warming to keep itself in balance.
There's the whole bit about our massively increased population compared to the old days and how the overall "health" of the planet just might kill vast numbers of us that's a little harder to ignore.
There's 'big picture' and there's "stretch the timeline out far enough and everyone's life expectancy drops to zero" big picture.
The planet just might be able to support awesome numbers of us if what we do to it doesn't force it to balance itself out in unpleasent ways.
Regarding the PR war: The anti-AGW (or even outright anti-GW) movement is benefitting from some people saying "we're all doomed" a little too loudly and the end of times not coming as quick as they might have indicated. But that's several things at once; it's been mainstream science for ages but the media at large has so little interest in science (or perhaps, such superficial interest in science) and the world at large had so little interest in global warming for thirty years that a little hysteria is understandable. It's like the guy at the party shouting to be heard over the music. No matter what the substance of what you're saying, if you're shouting when the music stops you're going to be extreme.
Xorak on 22/11/2009 at 07:44
Quote Posted by CCCToad
edit: response to Xorak: There's some evidence to indicate that increased rarity of traditional energy resources could force a change faster than you'd think.
Big business does only what is in their interest and they probably already have a handle on how many years we can go on at our current rate, and probably have a timeline fleshed out when it'll be in their interests to start moving away from traditional resources. It's terrible to say it, but they will control the process the entire way because the collective 'we' will ultimately make no attempt to stop it.
Quote Posted by Muzman
There's the whole bit about our massively increased population compared to the old days and how the overall "health" of the planet just might kill vast numbers of us that's a little harder to ignore.
There's 'big picture' and there's "stretch the timeline out far enough and everyone's life expectancy drops to zero" big picture.
The planet just might be able to support awesome numbers of us if what we do to it doesn't force it to balance itself out in unpleasent ways.
Regarding the PR war: The anti-AGW (or even outright anti-GW) movement is benefitting from some people saying "we're all doomed" a little too loudly and the end of times not coming as quick as they might have indicated. But that's several things at once; it's been mainstream science for ages but the media at large has so little interest in science (or perhaps, such superficial interest in science) and the world at large had so little interest in global warming for thirty years that a little hysteria is understandable. It's like the guy at the party shouting to be heard over the music. No matter what the substance of what you're saying, if you're shouting when the music stops you're going to be extreme.
I agree that the world could hold massive amounts of people. I don't even think we're anywhere near the tipping point. I don't think either it will ever be reached. I agree though that at any point the earth could come around and bite us in the ass, just to warn us a little. But there's nothing we can do anyways if an Ice Age were to start up all of a sudden.
At the end of the day we're all just passengers, and we should have to pick up our garbage for when the next person wants to sit down.
I think the PR war comes down to the frustration that you'll never get a whole population to change, especially when there are so many conflicting truths out there.
Aerothorn on 22/11/2009 at 11:09
Quote Posted by Xorak
Big business does only what is in their interest
Not necessarily. As the auto manufacturers in the USA have been demonstrating for years (particularly in light of their recent economic meltdown), they tend to think in terms of quarterly reports rather than long-term issues. Hence making primarilly SUVs even as the long-term forecast made it clear that the market was moving away from them.
Quote Posted by Xorak
I agree that the world could hold massive amounts of people. I don't even think we're anywhere near the tipping point. I don't think either it will ever be reached.
Depends on how much weight you put on technological advances in sustainability. I've read some reports that say the "sustainable" population of the USA is 150 million, and we're already at 308. A lot of the resources we're extracting take somewhere between hundreds and millions of year to replenish.
d0om on 24/11/2009 at 15:31
Exactly, whenever we use Fossil fuels, you are effectively using stored solar power from millions of years ago.
We are burning up millions of years of reserves in the space of a few hundred years. This is also returning CO2 to the biosphere which has been locked away for millions of years, which will greatly raise CO2 levels.
Higher CO2 is BAD for two main reasons:
1) basic physics of the greenhouse effect, just like how a car with closed windows heats up when in the sun, more CO2 in the atmosphere traps more heat near to the ground instead of escaping into space, which warms the planet.
2) More CO2 = higher CO2 concentration in the sea = acidification of oceans. If the oceans turn acidic, coral, fish etc will die. The makeup of life in the sea will drastically change, which will probably be bad for us (if we haven't made all the fish extinct by then...)
Of course, the higher temperatures will be bad for other reasons themselves, mainly due to permafrost melting in Siberia, Greenland and Antarctica. This will raise sea levels by 60m if they all melt. This is bad thing for most people!
Also there is a lot of natural gas and CO2 trapped in these permafrosts. If they melt, it will be released. This will in turn increase the rate of temperature increase, causing more melting which causes more gasses to escape... If we don't act soon it might become too late!
But people don't seem to care, its all a conspiracy to deprive them of their way of life apparently, since the EVIL LIBERALS want nothing more than to make you drive a smaller car, for reasons unknown.
I'm sure* when the photosynthetic bacteria were pumping out oxygen into the atmosphere billions of years ago, they all thought that the warnings about oxygen being toxic and filling the atmosphere were all liberal propaganda, how could something as small as a bacteria affect the atmosphere? And anyway, everyone else was still doing it so why should they stop? Who could have foreseen the complete change in atmospheric make-up and mass extinctions that followed?
* this is clearly a lie since they lacked the ability to think, much like most humans today
Koki on 24/11/2009 at 15:58
Quote Posted by d0om
But people don't seem to care
Do you care about your impact of the ecosystem every time you kill a mosquito?
