CCCToad on 11/12/2009 at 16:31
First off, I don't really believe that Europe is great in all ways. There's quite a few ways in which it sucks, but those haven't come up in this discussion. For example, you get arrested if you try to homeschool your kid in Germany and the EU has found a way to implement laws without giving member nations a chance to vote on them. Nevermind that the EU president has stated he is working towards "global management of our planet", a statement that is a bit unsettling.
My point was simply that, on average, European society is structured in a way that uses a lot less fuel than Americans do. Notice the word "average". I'm sure there are exceptions, but my point was simply that lower travel distances and a lower reliance on "big box" stores means that European society is simply structured in a way that is naturally going to consume less energy.
Although I think the threat of man-made climate change is exaggerated for political gain (not false, just exaggerated), this is still a fundamental problem. Even if you (to emphasize this aspect of my argument) leave climate change out of the argument,pollution still sucks. Smog is a very real thing(trust me, living 200 feet away from a major urban, downtown highway sucks), not to mention the enormous financial burden and the limited supply of oil.
The problem is that achieving any kind of meaningful energy use reduction is near impossible because of that. You would have to completely restructure American cities to reduce reliance on cars, and the economy to reduce reliance on big box retail stores.
Fragony on 11/12/2009 at 17:02
Quote Posted by Muzman
Kinda makes what we do with our 4% all the more important doesn't it.
(we have C02 denial, I suppose if I said 'what is causing the temperature rise then?' we'd get it's not rising, then if asked "what about these stats from all these different sciences?" we'd get 'can't be trusted. Some guy's email got hacked into after all'. Have we got Bingo yet?)
Well no I would rather call taking draconian measures to combat these 4% an excercise in futility.
Denial is an interesting word, suggests there is no middle ground. I am not taking the middle ground but many do. That is how you create a lie, make it as silly as it can possibly get, pretend it's widely accepted, and exclude those who think otherwise 'denial'. They end up being indviduals against many, and ultimately they will become part of the lie because they don't speak up, propaganda isn't about lying but making the lie obvious, it's about humilation.
little examples to prove my point, you met them. 'weapons of mass destruction' et 'unpatriotic' et 'freedomfries' <-lol but you tend to miss them when it comes from the other side. CO2 denial.
Fragony on 11/12/2009 at 18:45
Most idiots are until they have been right all along, I just described how it's done, humiliaton of opposition, I would rather have me to be wrong then you really. And if you think I am full of shit then I refer to my examples few posts back, why on earth are you trusting the people that use tax money for their own intererests.
Sulphur on 11/12/2009 at 18:48
Yeah, I'd rather people gave me their tax money instead because they can totally trust me with it.
Fragony on 11/12/2009 at 19:04
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Yeah, I'd rather people gave me their tax money instead because they can totally trust me with it.
Lol 80% money goes back to Switzerland, works like this, it isn't really a gift, it's a loan they can't repay, and then we will start demanding their natural recources. But keep cheering having ideals is fun
Namdrol on 11/12/2009 at 19:06
SHUT UP FRAGONY
Aerothorn on 11/12/2009 at 19:09
What happened to the "WE CAN DEFEAT HIM WITH REASONED DISCOURSE" attitude?
Sulphur on 11/12/2009 at 19:14
The problem is when you attempt reasoned discourse, certain kinds of people ignore any points you might make and attack irrelevancies instead.
Namdrol on 11/12/2009 at 19:18
He broke me, he just fucking broke me with his babble of inanities...
