SubJeff on 10/12/2009 at 12:34
Where was this because I call bs.
Aerothorn on 10/12/2009 at 12:41
I think the big issue here is saying "Europe" as if it was a homogenous place. The USA isn't either, of course, but it's one country so you can at least do some averaging. There are places in Europe where you are apparently fine without a car (Amsterdam) and a lot where you are not (as noted, most of England). Ditto with the USA - a number of the major metropolises have passable public transportation systems, but the vast majority of the country is built for cars.
DDL on 10/12/2009 at 13:24
If you live in an inner city area/town you're usually ok. Small villages, sprawling council suburbs and the like are admittedly more shit...but even then, a degree of this comes down to people being too lazy to walk ("it's like 2 MILES to the nearest ASDA! 2 WHOLE MILES!!"), and/or insisting on doing a month's worth of shopping at once ("I can't carry all that without a car!").
(yes, ok, there will be people of actual limited mobility who'll have troubles, but it's more generally laziness)
Regarding the "do as I say, don't do as I do", it's a non-argument. If Al Gore can convince governments worldwide that climate change is fucking "serious business" while accruing a large carbon footprint, that's STILL MUCH BETTER FOR THE PLANET than if he sat at home and planted trees on an eco-ranch and did nothing to convince anyone. If we expected people in power to all act and live exactly as your 'average man' does, nothing would ever get fucking done.
Namdrol on 10/12/2009 at 13:35
Yup, I bit too quickly and 'Toad even said, "many, not all" but it's that automatic "Yurpeens r kewl an rite", when there are vast differences both socially and economically throughout the continent.
And D'Juhn Keep, it seems as if the term "Food Desert" was (
http://www.fooddeserts.org/images/whatisfd.htm) first used in the context of a public sector housing scheme in the west of Scotland in the early 1990s.
I don't know if people know much about the housing schemes of the UK but they're quite something...
Fragony on 10/12/2009 at 13:36
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Some of us would like to do a better job of practicing what we preach but can't because some jerks keep blocking attempts to fix shit because they think it's "not real"
Que? It are sceptics who have to fear for their careers. Or deniars as some like to call them, climate change denial, what's in a word, implicates the dust has settled and that there is a small group of scientists grabbing at straws, but that isn't the case. Also sounds like, ah well. They just don't get invited. Maybe that is different in the USA, but here they have no voice.
Starrfall on 10/12/2009 at 15:11
Nope, round here the skeptics have voices so loud they actually do prevent others from taking steps to fix things.
One big example from the last few years is California's request for a Clean Air Act waiver to allow us to set our own standards for emissions from cars. Which we are very much allowed to do - the Clean Air Act pretty clearly contemplates that California will sometimes have stricter standards (other states are allowed to join us - and about 15 or so did - but only we can request a waiver) , and the threshold we have to meet to get a waiver is extremely low as far as these things go (and we pretty clearly met that threshold).
But we still had to wait four years and elect a whole new president before we got it.
(ps guess what? "Sometimes your governor flies in a private plane" actually isn't a valid reason for denying a waiver. Shocking, I know)
Koki on 10/12/2009 at 15:19
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Where was this because I call bs.
Bishop's Stortford. Are you going to check it out? :rolleyes:
Kolya on 10/12/2009 at 15:38
I don't own a car. You can easily get around this town (pop. 1 million) with a bike, the next supermarket is 100m away and small convenience stores are literally all over the place (4 stores in a 300m radius from my home). I'd say CCCToad's statement was correct in regards to my own European living situation.
However this is not because Romans set up the shops, they're mostly run by Turks.
Fragony on 10/12/2009 at 15:38
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Nope, round here the skeptics have voices so loud they actually do prevent others from taking steps to fix things.
Not so sure about that since your national congress picked this up, why would they do that if the global-warming theory is the one that is on the defense.
CCCToad on 10/12/2009 at 16:01
Quote Posted by DDL
Regarding the "do as I say, don't do as I do", it's a non-argument. If Al Gore can convince governments worldwide that climate change is fucking "serious business" while accruing a large carbon footprint, that's STILL MUCH BETTER FOR THE PLANET than if he sat at home and planted trees on an eco-ranch and did nothing to convince anyone. If we expected people in power to all act and live exactly as your 'average man' does, nothing would ever get fucking
done.
The issue is that its pretty hard for them to do that when they are very visibly hypocrites. It begs the question "Wait, if he believes that climate change is such a sever problem that we only have six years until Earth experiences a catastrophe, then wouldn't he be doing his part?".
Also, there's a difference between "living as your average man" and extravagance. Having a forty thousand foot mansion, having vacation homes across the globe, and a fleet of SUV's doesn't help them do business more efficiently than a small mansion and driving hybrid sports as their primary vehicle. I do, however, understand the difference between necessary expenditures (like Air Force 1) and unnecessary ones (taking a private jet to vacation in New Zealand).
Besides, I recall the general sentiment being that we should conserve even if it slows the economy. Does that apply to everyone, or everyone except "the people in power"?
