Fragony doesn't believe humans cause climate change:

Starrfall on 10/12/2009 at 06:00

Some of us would like to do a better job of practicing what we preach but can't because some jerks keep blocking attempts to fix shit because they think it's "not real"

CCCToad on 10/12/2009 at 06:13

This is a bit of an easy one, but what the hell, this should be entertaining:
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6736517/Copenhagen-climate-summit-1200-limos-140-private-planes-and-caviar-wedges.html)

Quote:

Ms Jorgensen reckons that between her and her rivals the total number of limos in Copenhagen next week has already broken the 1,200 barrier. The French alone rang up on Thursday and ordered another 42. "We haven't got enough limos in the country to fulfil the demand," she says. "We're having to drive them in hundreds of miles from Germany and Sweden."

So these people need limos and private jets because people are blocking attempts at fixing things?

Aside from that, though, the problem is even more fundamental than simply passing green rules. The American "big box" economy is dependent on the ability to transport product over thousands of miles cheaply. Nevermind that it takes a huge amount of gas to do so, not to mention the countless tons of packaging that simply gets thrown away once stuff gets to its destination. This is also tied to another cause of American "gas pollution": our city design pretty much requires the use of cars to conduct daily business. Its a sharp contrast to Europe, where many(not all) cities are closely built enough to allow for people to do their daily grocery shopping and errands within walking distance.

Starrfall on 10/12/2009 at 06:23

RAAG HOW DARE YOU RIDE IN A LIMO

hey wait maybe we'd have electric limos by now if it weren't for the jerks.

AND if it weren't for the jerks, maybe we wouldn't even be using coal-fired power plants to provide the electricity!

Thanks for playing though!

Namdrol on 10/12/2009 at 06:24

Quote Posted by CCCToad

Its a sharp contrast to Europe, where many(not all) cities are closely built enough to allow for people to do their daily grocery shopping and errands within walking distance.

I love how certain Americans hold the Europeans up as some model of correct behaviour, while having no fucking idea what they're on about.

D'Juhn Keep on 10/12/2009 at 06:50

I love a hate-in as much as the next guy but I think CCCToad's made a couple of good points with his last post.

There certainly is an element of "do as I say, not as I do" from politicians. This is hardly new and applies to anything from flying short haul everywhere instead of taking a train to getting to work by bike/car to sending your children to a local state school.

Also a good point is that, from what I'm aware of, American cities absolutely are more car-dependent than European cities. You disagree, Namdrol, but for what reason? I'm fairly sure I haven't heard about UK cities having food deserts in them.

CCCToad on 10/12/2009 at 06:54

Quote Posted by Namdrol

I love how certain Americans hold the Europeans up as some model of correct behaviour, while having no fucking idea what they're on about.

Its not a statement made of pure ignorance to say that American cities are much more dependant on the use of cars than in Europe. I've been there, and due to my career know quite a few people who've lived there who talked about being able to buy food and essentials within walking distance.

Renzatic on 10/12/2009 at 06:56

While I've never been to Europe, I can see where CCC is coming from. Northern American cities sprung up around motorized vehicles of various sort, and are structured into specific districts spaced widely apart. European cities all have their roots in Roman and medieval layouts, which were, for lack of a better word, later retrofitted with roads. It makes sense that all their various shops and whatnot would be crammed closer together, cuz all those old timey fuckers had to have everything available within walking distance.

Muzman on 10/12/2009 at 07:18

An interesting aside is the tale of how it didn't need to be so. Starting from the forties onwards the US car industry systematically bought up and dismantled every public transport system in the country (except busses) and got involved with government to make sure of it. All to increase dependence on big roads and wide open spaces.

Namdrol on 10/12/2009 at 08:51

Ok, bit snippy maybe but the rose tinted view of middle class Europe is bullshit.
To get cheap decent food in the UK you need a car, both in rural locations and within town.

And I don't mean the nice lovely leafy areas with deli's and antique shops.
Go out to the housing estates of all sorts from council to private, the places where most people live and try and walk to a place to get decent cheap food, you're going to come to a small shop selling the Happy Shopper brand or Family Choice. And it's overpriced shit food.

Supermarkets are built out of town in this country.

I had to look up food desert.

Quote:

Wikipedia
A food desert is a district with little or no access to foods needed to maintain a healthy diet but often served by plenty of fast food restaurants.

You know why most council estates in the outlying disticts of our cities and the dying rural areas with no buses, no shops, no pubs, no post offices aren't food deserts by this definition?
Because they don't have access to fast food.

This view of an educated, middle class urban UK is nonsense and has no connection with reality.
Come to the central belt in Scotland, go to Belfast, the Midlands, rural West Country, Cornwall, South Wales, Manchester, Liverpool etc, etc...

The number of people in this country who live in low income household is 13.4 million. ((http://www.poverty.org.uk/reports/mpse%202009%20findings.pdf) Dec '09 Executive summarry of UK Wide Social Indicators, Joesph Rowntree Trust)
This is a country with a vast social gulf and when you come over here to visit and live in student land or touristville you barely see it
The UK has one of the (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/3232729/OECD-says-gap-between-rich-and-poor-in-UK-among-widest-in-world.html) widest income gaps in the developed world and this is even more marked once you move out of SE England
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/may/08/poverty-equality-britain-incomes-poor)
Round up of a few figures.

Koki on 10/12/2009 at 12:28

Quote Posted by CCCToad

Its not a statement made of pure ignorance to say that American cities are much more dependant on the use of cars than in Europe.

Considering one of my first observations about the UK town I lived in was "You can't do shit without a car here" USA must be pretty bad.