SubJeff on 22/4/2008 at 19:51
Europe has never been a place of peace and tranquility either though.
I'm not saying that all of Africa's problems are due to colonization, but a lot of them are and for a lot of different reasons. South Africa is one of the worst and it IS due to apartheid. It's hard to believe that when I lived in Malawi my black friends couldn't really have come on holiday with me to SA. One of my friend's father was the Malawian ambassador to SA. When they moved into a white area it was in the news. The frikking news. This was in the 80s man, the 80s. Not the 60s, 50s or even 40s. The 80s.
I don't think white people in SA should experience any "white guilt" unless they've actually done things they should be guilty about. But just because you don't feel white guilt why should that stop you from realising that that country is largely, not wholly, but largely messed up because of past history of white rule. You can say that now that many of these countries escaped white rule in the 50s, 60s and 70s they should be over it but the fact is that the white people instilled ideas that do not fit in those cultures. Western democracy does not seem to work, and I think it's because they are trying to copy it too closely. The work ethic has been picked up from the Europeans who expect a 9 to 5 with weekends off. This is why Chinese companies import Chinese workers even thought they have to pay them slightly more - they work an 8 to 6 and only expect one day off.
And The West still exploits Africa. All the natural resources are taken out will little benefit for the people. Western fashion labels have factories in Africa that produce underwear that the workers couldn't buy with a whole weeks wages.
The Phenomenon on 22/4/2008 at 20:53
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Europe has never been a place of peace and tranquility either though.
I'm not saying that all of Africa's problems are due to colonization, but a lot of them are and for a lot of different reasons. South Africa is one of the worst and it IS due to apartheid. It's hard to believe that when I lived in Malawi my black friends couldn't really have come on holiday with me to SA. One of my friend's father was the Malawian ambassador to SA. When they moved into a white area it was in the news. The frikking news. This was in the 80s man, the 80s. Not the 60s, 50s or even 40s. The 90s.
I don't think white people in SA should experience any "white guilt" unless they've actually done things they should be guilty about. But just because you don't feel white guilt why should that stop you from realising that that country is largely, not wholly, but largely messed up because of past history of white rule. You can say that now that many of these countries escaped white rule in the 50s, 60s and 70s they should be over it but the fact is that the white people instilled ideas that do not fit in those cultures. Western democracy does not seem to work, and I think it's because they are trying to copy it too closely. The work ethic has been picked up from the Europeans who expect a 9 to 5 with weekends off. This is why Chinese companies import Chinese workers even thought they have to pay them slightly more - they work an 8 to 6 and only expect one day off.
And The West still exploits Africa. All the natural resources are taken out will little benefit for the people. Western fashion labels have factories in Africa that produce underwear that the workers couldn't buy with a whole weeks wages.
Well I disagree that colonialization is the primary reason for Africa's problems.
South Africa was the last of the countries to return to "black rule". Its one of the few that actually does anything close to western democracy.
Zimbabwe, democracy? When? They just had their first election that HASN'T been entirely fixed. And that country got screwed over because it was ran by a warlord. That exact same situation repeats itself all over africa and has for the better part of a century.
Do you really think that if there was no Apartheid South Africa would be a nice, safe place to live today? I worked in Malawi for a couple of months, I was there for the installation of Telecel Malawi's (cellphone network) switch and SMSC and billing system. The national landline switch is in a semi-ruined building that has whole walls missing on some floors. The building was built by collonialists, and not a whole damn lot have been built since. Atleast not in Blantyre. How long has Malawi been a "free" country?
Are you aware of African history here in the south before colonialists arrived? Zulus were the most powerful of the groups, and they were actively commiting genocide and taking slaves. They had all but killed off all the San (Bushmen). Their rampage accross southern africa led to smaller tribes banding together and forming what is known today as the Sothos. Shaka is one of the most celebrated historical leaders in Africa, but actually he was the leader of the most bloodthirsty and powerful tribe in south. This aspect of Zulu culture is still strong today, just look at any recent speech by Jacob Zuma, who in all likelyhood will be the next South African president. When he was on trial for rape not too long ago, his mantra was "give me my machine gun".
Zimbabweans can't blame their situation on English collonialists. Neither can South Africa. Africa has always been ruled by warlords, and a relatively short bout of white rule hasn't changed that one little bit, because as soon as they left, the warlords returned. Some of them were even called freedom fighters for a while.
SubJeff on 22/4/2008 at 21:13
Listen eksays, I think you must divorce yourself from this notion of the white way and the black way.
There are, and were, other ways.
The problem with colonisation is that people came in and ruled. They imposed their ideas. I never said that the pre-colonial ways were superior, but you don't go in and switch everything round to your way of thinking without any thought for how the native population operates. If colonisation was more about working with the locals the story could have been very different.
Zimbabwe was messed up by colonisation and this dinosaur ruler is still reacting to it, so damaging has it been. I agree with him 100% that the white farmers should give up their land and return to whence they came because they took that land by force and have shat on the local population ever since. White Zimbabweans are amongst the most racist people I ever met in Africa, and you know this to be true. They live like kings on those farms and the workers have always been treated like crap.
What I do NOT agree with is the reactionary way in which Mugabe has done things. The principle is correct, and I know alot of expats who believe that. It's the way he has done it that is wrong.
There are many democracies in Africa. But I don't think that that is necessarily a good thing. Malawi was a much more stable country under the rule of Banda. The economy has worsened, crime rates are rising and corruption is far more widespread. Dictators aren't always a bad thing imo.
One major issue is the general level of poverty. People become reduced to base instincts when they live in such conditions. If Africa is ever to be helped that is the first thing that needs to be tackled. If you don't think years of being treated as second class citizens only to be now no better off in your own country whilst whitey is still on top isn't enough to cause mass malcontent you're sadly mistaken.
The_Raven on 22/4/2008 at 21:27
Quote:
This was in the 80s man, the 80s. Not the 60s, 50s or even 40s. The 90s.
Since when did the 80s equal the 90s?
Quote:
This is why Chinese companies import Chinese workers...
Huh? If the company is in China, why would they have to import Chinese workers?
Quote:
Zimbabwe was messed up by colonisation and this dinosaur ruler is still reacting to it, so damaging has it been. I agree with him 100% that the white farmers should give up their land and return to whence they came because they took that land by force and have shat on the local population ever since.
Give the Native Americans back their land and go back to Europe.
EDIT: I know next to nothing about these issues, but SE isn't making any sense.
SubJeff on 22/4/2008 at 21:33
Pointing out a typo how clever o lol give the man a hand.
Chinese companies in Africa, obviously. 2+2. Keep up. It's not exactly a stretch.
The timeframe is vastly different in Zimbabwe vs USA my man. It would have been perfectly practical for those people who originated from the UK to sell their farms and relocate. Numbers are much smaller, roots easily traceable. How many generations do you think it's been?
If you did know anything about it all maybe I would make sense to you. I mean, how you can even have the gall to say that. I say 2+2=4 and you say "I can't count but...
The Phenomenon on 22/4/2008 at 21:33
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Listen eksays, I think you must divorce yourself from this notion of the white way and the black way.
There are, and were, other ways.
The problem with colonisation is that people came in and ruled. They imposed their ideas. I never said that the pre-colonial ways were superior, but you don't go in and switch everything round to your way of thinking without any thought for how the native population operates. If colonisation was more about working
with the locals the story could have been very different.
Zimbabwe was messed up by colonisation and this dinosaur ruler is still reacting to it, so damaging has it been. I agree with him 100% that the white farmers should give up their land and return to whence they came because they took that land by force and have shat on the local population ever since. White Zimbabweans are amongst the most racist people I ever met in Africa, and you know this to be true. They live like kings on those farms and the workers have always been treated like crap.
What I do NOT agree with is the reactionary way in which Mugabe has done things. The principle is correct, and I know alot of expats who believe that. It's the way he has done it that is wrong.
There are many democracies in Africa. But I don't think that that is necessarily a good thing. Malawi was a much more stable country under the rule of Banda. The economy has worsened, crime rates are rising and corruption is far more widespread. Dictators aren't always a bad thing imo.
One major issue is the general level of poverty. People become reduced to base instincts when they live in such conditions. If Africa is ever to be helped that is the first thing that needs to be tackled. If you don't think years of being treated as second class citizens only to be now no better off in your own country whilst whitey is still on top isn't enough to cause mass malcontent you're sadly mistaken.
I am not attached to a definition of a white or black way, but this is the way our politics are polarized by politicians and our media. But you certainly seem to see things in only black and white.
Should white farmers give up their farms? Why? Because they are white and took them by force? What about the previous owners? The previous owners also acquired land by conquest. By might. How far back do you want to go to determine who the 'real' owners are? Or is just being the most recent black occupant more than enough? What about white people that bought land? What about the San, are you going to give them back the territories they were driven from by the Zulu tribes too instead of sticking them in some nature reserve? What about white people that are not racist? Yeah there are white racists, there are black ones too. Your claim that all Zimbabwean white farmers are racists is unsubstantiated nonsense and doesn't belong anywhere in a reasonable discussion.
Should the white people leave their implements and structures too? How about the fields? When one of the largest pear plantations in South Africa was threatened with being forced by government to accept payment for his farm for less than its market value, he promised to cut every pear tree down and give it back to them the way he found it. I guess he must be an asshole.
Show me a nation that hasn't taken what they have by force at some point in their history.
What you do in that assumption is incredibly racist in of itself. Africa doesn't belong to black people. There are a great many groups in Africa, just like in Europe. And some of them really hate eachother, too. Just look at all the racial violence all over africa that doesn't even involve white people. I was born here, just because I am white doesn't make me any bit less African than any other black person. Being African has fuckall to do with the colour of your skin.
The colour of your skin should never be the deciding factor, but people are happy to turn a blind eye when racism is from black to white. Doing something to someone just because they are white, is racism too. And you certainly cannot fix damage done by racism in the past by more racism in the future.
Nothing about the land seizures in Zimbabwe was right. Nothing. I have several million starving people as supporting evidence.
SubJeff on 22/4/2008 at 21:43
The white farmers shouldn't "give up" their land. Those people worked hard and made a success out of their farms, benefiting the country greatly.
I'm not denying that.
You are the one seeing things in black and white. Mugabe's methods are insane, THAT is why people are starving. A phased and compensated transition of the land would have been acceptable imo. You cannot state that EVERYTHING about the land changing hands was wrong because the situation is messed up now. That's like saying EATING IS WRONG because someone was once force fed and choked.
The colour of your skin shouldn't be the deciding factor, I agree. But when those farmers instilled themselves that WAS the factor. All I'm suggesting is a reversal of that, and I'm suggesting a non-confrontational manner too, which certainly not the way it happened in the first place.
fett on 23/4/2008 at 11:41
Quote Posted by The_Raven
EDIT: I know next to nothing about these issues,
Yes, I think you've adequately demonstrated that.
Tocky on 26/4/2008 at 14:48
Maybe but I agree there is a lot that doesn't follow.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
You can say that now that many of these countries escaped white rule in the 50s, 60s and 70s they should be over it but the fact is that the white people instilled ideas that do not fit in those cultures. Western democracy does not seem to work, and I think it's because they are trying to copy it too closely. The work ethic has been picked up from the Europeans who expect a 9 to 5 with weekends off. This is why Chinese companies import Chinese workers even thought they have to pay them slightly more - they work an 8 to 6 and only expect one day off.
And The West still exploits Africa. All the natural resources are taken out will little benefit for the people. Western fashion labels have factories in Africa that produce underwear that the workers couldn't buy with a whole weeks wages.
I don't think you can say that democracy is being followed too closely when Mugabe uses the election process merely to compile a list of enemies. You kind of have to turn over power when you have been voted out. You have to place the good of the country over personal gain. That too is democracy. If Washington had refused to turn over power it would have set a terrible example. Actually all he had to do was accept power and it would have been repeatedly handed to him but he believed in the process and that no one man should rule.
As for work ethic, that can be adjusted but the less you work the less you gain is a principle hard to get around as the laws of physics are tied to it. LOL the Chinese. They could have adjusted easily with shift work. If you bring a company into a country and do not employ the populace of that country THEN you are exploiting resources. Otherwise it is just selling the produce of a country and bringing the populace into the modern world. Not that a minimum living wage shouldn't be established. Everywhere everyone exploits the resources we have, we expliot our own and those of others to improve the human condition. A good government will not only negotiate the sale of those resources but find ways to distribute the proceeds to the people. Did Bethleham Steel say NO NO MY STEEL YOU GO AWAY?
Which brings me to my final point. Bullshit white guilt. I'm always reminded of the scene in "Life of Brian" where the Jews are discussing how the Romans never did any good except that someone keeps bringing up all the good that has been done. India changed from colonial rule without giving up thier culture and yet kept those ideas that worked from western rule. If a country clings to rape, murder, tribal conflict, and personal power gain as part of it's culture then it will never succeed in dealing with the rest of the world. Blaming the rest of the world which does succeed and for a reason just doesn't cut it.
