klatremus on 1/1/2024 at 04:29

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Awesome work again, UV! And great screenshots too! Reading it didn't spoil anything, as I just finished my ghost run. Btw I think you messed up the total loot possible for Supreme in the stats. The last piece of gold is indeed on the roof and accessible from the bell tower ledge you mentioned. As for the loot you skipped, I was able to take one of the diamonds without the lights going out, so you only have to skip 25. Fun fact, you can successfully Supreme the mission (bar the alarm bust) without picking a single lock, but it is difficult. If you want max loot you have to pick 2 locks.

klatremus on 9/1/2024 at 01:07

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In the Roman Domus report, Galaer, you mention that Perfect Supreme is impossible because of resetting the difficulty to normal. What does that mean?

ultravioletu on 14/1/2024 at 13:30

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Game: Thief 1
FM: The Black Parade, Mission 4: Death's Dominion

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Failed (but it might possible by skipping some loot and/or areas)
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 1:13:13 (blind run: over 100 mins in-game, or about 12 hours RL spread over few days)
Loot - 2891/2891 (for Supreme: 2222/2891)
Pockets Picked - 5/5 (for Supreme: 1/5)
Locks Picked - 2 (for Supreme: 0)
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Consumables - Holy water vial & water arrow to bless Grimsworth's tomb, cheese to obtain a quest item. The vial and there cheese were obtained near the entrance. Also: water arrow to douse a fire in South Tombs area, to take a skull (avoidable Supreme bust).

I did not think I'd come so far, but here is it: the report for my Perfect Thief run of Death's Dominion. I prioritised max loot, taking some Supreme busts in the process, but the rest was Supreme-clean. The original, blind ghost run, finished with over 1000 loot missing, and the subsequent week (more or less) was spent scouting the missing pieces. For the most part while still ghosting (but I must admit that I discovered the jar in the hanging cage only after, in frustration, I eliminated, using the holy water font, all enemies from that area...).

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Started with visiting the two residences in the town area. Skipped the bar for now, which was a way out.

Dropped into the catacombs and encountered the first two Supreme problems right away: taking one purple vase (50) triggers a trap, while reaching the 'holey' room in the lower entrance area, containing a rug (20) requires walking past a sleeping zombie that alerts (twice: in and out). The second is probably solvable by bringing some boulders to create a "bridge", but I didn't feel like do it. Took thus three Supreme busts.
https://i.imgur.com/pdW5Xt9.png

After clearing the entrance area and the staircase, went to Grimsworth extension. Blessed his tomb for the reward (which also disables the trap) and took all loot, including one deviously placed golden skull in a nearby room. Better take it before the zombie starts patrolling! The lower level of the extension offers a way to South Lower Tombs (by dropping in water), which I did not choose, and to the upper ledge of the North Lower Tombs, which I took.

Approaching NLT via Grimsworth has the advantage of a cleaner access to Ossuary. The stationary zombie behind the waterfall was the main hindrance. It made it very difficult to travel from the South Lower Tombs back to the Upper Tombs, as to do so one must use a rope in its plain view. The slow creep-crouch-strafe movement kept it content, but one must also mind the patrols...
https://i.imgur.com/LLHOQqd.png

Dropped from the Ossuary area back on the same ledge, then jumped to the other side, to visit again Upper Tombs.
https://i.imgur.com/UCqen6Y.png

No major issues here, some traps here and there, but nothing extraordinary. The last piece of loot in this area was the vase on the sarcophagus behind the fences, which can be reached from behind, the "Father Balomonch" staircase. As the way back is blocked for Supreme by a corpse spawned in the corridor, one HAS to drop afterwards to the South Lower Tombs.
https://i.imgur.com/JSF2xU3.png

I landed in the "Grave Warden's Vigil" area. The apparition was no problem (nor the additional zombie revived with some delay). For a long time, I had troubles figuring out where exactly I was on the map. Now I realise it's located somehow N from the NE octagonal room of the South Lower Tombs map, and it's somehow E from the North Lower Tombs (and of course, overlapping a little with & a bit S from the Upper Tombs, from where we drop). Anyway, this area is connected to SLT in two ways: via the undergound caves, and via a room with broken floor to Albrecht extension's entrance hall.

As such, I visited next the Albrecht extension. Nice architecture, clever and unusual traps, but I could sneak around them and take the objective within Supreme rules. The fact that the overall lights turned ON afterwards is not a bust, imho.
https://i.imgur.com/siagS1O.png

In the NE octagonal room on the lower floor of SLT, one must douse the fire to grab the golden skull (100). Another Supreme bust for my Perfect Thief run.

Did not go upstairs yet; instead, I took a detour to visit the lowest level of the North Lower Tombs, including Noirequier's place. The patrollers are nasty, but with patience it's not hard to find openings. Before tackling the objective, I paid a visit to the N staircase area (and its underbelly): quite some loot there! Better to pick the place clean before the additional zombie is revived. Then took the necklace, dodged the monster while carrying the hammer out to the pedestal in front, obtained the second bonus item and left the area.
https://i.imgur.com/1jjaqTL.png

Headed back to SLT, dropped into the caves and jumped into the water for a nugget. Emerged in the W tower area, which had a convenient opening in the floor, leading to a rich chamber adjacent to Belor's tomb. At Belor's, the blue gem (100) triggers a trap when opening the chest - further Supreme bust. After getting the third bonus item by feeding the poor hungry warrior, I went back, through the room with the thief killed by trap, to the SW staircase area.

Took the stairs up, dodged the haunts and grabbed the final bonus item by showing proper respect to the hammer in the NE room! Went to the big plaque room, which was now open, and constructed the what I baptised "Holy Sword of Bugger Destruction" (just for show, of course... it's useless for Supreme). The rug in the small room with yellow door should be taken last, as entering the area is the cue for the sleeping mummy. But this one can be avoided easily, too. Another piece of loot, a candlestick (50) in the 'mummy' room, is a source of light AND triggers a loud trap when taken, therefore two additional Supreme busts - I took it before the mummy woke up, and I had to ensure that the haunts passing nearby were far enough...
https://i.imgur.com/Yz7iCvB.png

Before going to Aldrius extension, roped up to the small library-like hall with a spawning apparition (and loot).
https://i.imgur.com/lxk5ZQO.png

Opened the gate to go once more into North Lower Tombs, middle (upper?) level this time, to briefly creep-crouch-visit the room with the font. By minimising the path taken on this floor, I kept the stationary "waterfall" zombie silent.

Went back south, dodged yet another newly spawned patroller, and approached Aldrius extension, which was empty: I took the Demise without difficulties. Carried on afterwards to the cave area with the snake-like creatures. And, alas!, the last piece of loot, which I found after days of scouting, HAD to be in the snake-infested small sewer!! Anyway, grabbed it and took the ramp heading W and up towards the main sewer area.

And here I collected two more Supreme busts:
- the snake stuck at the bottom of the ramp alerted (or so I think; but given its position, it's probably hard to avoid. I tried using the flickering of the light, but w/o much success)
- I could not place the boulder blocking the sewer door back, after closing the door.

In the Gambling Den itself, I finished the lower floor before taking the fireplace passage to reach upstairs. Using the rafters made the trip easier. On this floor, there are two purses (15 and 10), for which I took the last two Supreme busts, because their stationary owners commented on nearby doors' opening.

Used the vent to reach the stairs, bypassing thus the guarded entrance, then visited Ginny's place, block-locked the bar door before returning the key upstairs, emptied the money box and then finished without further incidents.

Supreme busts: 10
- got two alerts from a sleeping zombie while collecting a rug in the entrance area
- triggered traps when obtaining two pieces of loot
- triggered a trap AND removed a source of light while taing a candlestick in the SLT upper floor
- doused a fire, thus removing a light source, before taking a golden skull in the SLT lower floor
- got alert by the snake-like creature on the way up to Gambling Den
- got two alerts from the stationary thugs when opening the nearby doors to steal their purses

Supreme considerations:
If the snake-like creature at the base of the ramp indeed alerts, and cannot be bypassed, then the complete Den area must be skipped for Supreme - that's 319 loot, plus the candlestick (25) at Ginny's place that can't be taken from outside, for total amount of 669 not obtainable for this mode. Going back from South Lower Tombs to the Upper Tombs, by ascending a rope in plain view of the 'waterfall' zombie is challenging, but probably possible. Key is to avoid any flickering of the light gem. Two patrollers must be avoided, as well as the pivoting zombie next to the Ossuary entrace, while keeping eye on the patrolling haunt behind... Not an easy task.
https://i.imgur.com/tJdq4uT.png

If the creature does not alert, then the Supreme way out of the Den is via catacombs, as per above, instead of using the bar (in this case, one must not even take Ginny's key). The boulder can thus be placed back next to the sewer door. Unobtainable loot for Supreme is "only" 345 in this scenario.

I believe that a clean Supreme run is possible, that's why I'm looking forward to klatremus' video!! (C'mon, where are you?? :))

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[later edit] I experimented a bit, and I manages to avoid one bust. One of the thugs in Den seems to have alerted to my movements (Trial of Iron revidivus...)

My Thief stint is now over, at least temporarily, until much later...

klatremus on 19/1/2024 at 22:58

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Game: Thief 1
FM: The Black Parade, Mission 2: Where Old Faces Fade

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Success
Perfect Supreme - Success
Time - 1:23:29
Loot - 3463/3463
Pockets Picked - 5/5
Locks Picked - None
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Consumables - None

See the entire report with screenshots (https://www.klatremus.org/TheBlackParade2.htm) here!
Loot list (https://www.klatremus.org/TheBlackParade2_L.htm) here.
YouTube let's play (https://youtu.be/SjP19CHhpJo) here!

Comments:
A very good manor mission this; a mix between Bafford's and The Sword. The biggest challenge is navigating Halleford's cryptic compound, and make sense of its confusing layout. As far as ghosting, it's a bit on the easier side, but that doesn't take away from the awesome design and mystery surrounding the mansion.

I was tasked with stealing Hallford's precious vase from one of the top floors, along with his golden clock and the contents of his vault. I also needed to bring along 1,250 worth of other valuables, before ending back in the initial alley.

To be honest, there wasn't much to report from this mission. The biggest challenge was finding a practical way to navigate the upper floors of the manor. The toughest area to ghost was the rooms surrounding the vase. There were hardly any shadows on the ground level, so I found it best to quickly mantle up the ledge to the west (image below). I stayed up here and exited through a window in the far northeast.

https://www.klatremus.org/TheBlackParade2_files/image001.jpg

As for the vault, I didn't need to pick of either of the keys that unlocked it. I could very easily lean through and grab the head from outside (image below). Not sure how that one slipped through testing unnoticed. This is not the same as leaning through doors and other solid surfaces, which would constitute an engine exploit. Gates and portcullises have large gaps, just like a boarded up entrance that can sometimes be pushed through and which has always been deemed perfectly legal for all modes. To me it is perfectly logical that Garrett (or Hume) can maneuver his nimble body far enough forward to get something on the other side. The examples for engine exploits in the rules mention crazy maneuvers that are completely illogical and present physical impossibilities like forcing your whole body through a metal door, or pushing enemies across a room without them noticing. This trick pales in comparison to those true exploits.

https://www.klatremus.org/TheBlackParade2_files/image002.jpg

ultravioletu on 30/1/2024 at 20:20

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Game: Thief 1
FM: The Black Parade, Mission 5: The Brand

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Questionable
Supreme Ghost - Possible
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 1:50:29
Loot - 3128/3128
Pockets Picked - 4/4
Locks Picked - 3
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Consumables - None
Additional remarks after the blind run (https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152434&p=2511400&viewfull=1#post2511400) here. I went again for Perfect Thief, but apart from the bust(s) incurred to maximize loot, it was 'clean Supreme'.

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At start, I immediately roped up to the small apartment with an archer, from which I entered, via chains, the Glendower Estate. No need to take the garden key, since that area can be reached differently. Looted the place, went downstaors and triggered the conversation in the kitchen. Used the stairs to dodge the servant; avoiding the maid and the guard in the kitchen was a small challenge, but nothing extraordinary once I found the right dark spot.

Then went ouside, picked the tiara from money box, and headed to the E side of "normal streets", stealing the two purses from the patrollers. Ignored the locked door (the prison can be reached differently, as I actually did in the blind run too) and headed, past the sleeping nobleman, into some rooms belonging to lower level of Alderman's Court.
https://i.imgur.com/hLW5idc.png

Took the valuables, but this not go yet into the haunted area S of Industrial Tenements (also because I faced troubles closing the panel behind me...). Instead, I went back to the street between Blackwind's Manor and Alderman's Court, and roped up to the "mid-level" of Blackwind's (made sure that the patroller, otherwise neutral, doesn't see me shooting the rope arrows):
https://i.imgur.com/XY7i3iF.png

Finishing the pair of rooms, I went outside W, then into a room that I interpreted as mid-level of the Alchemist building. Had a hard time jumping high enough to take the gold nugget, deviously disguised as "planet", but managed it eventually. Afterwards, I used the vent to go upstairs, to the top level of Blackwind's. Avoided to trigger the conversation between the woman and apologetic noble (voiced superbly by marbleman), and jumped again to the apartment patrolled by archer, from which I went once more to the top level of Glendower's.

This time, I took the pipes and chains eastwards, to grab the book from the window, then to go around Blackwind's, to approach the nobles from E:
https://i.imgur.com/XlHNIo1.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/4JQo5IS.png

This was actually the most difficult part for Supreme, since two jumpy archers could spot me. After using the conversation to steal the purse, I jumped into a small balcony leading to a different section belonging to lower level of Alderman's Court. The coin stacks by the bucket were among the most difficult to find pieces of loot. Finished the place upstairs, then used again the chains&pipes to reach the section of the battlements NOT patrolled by the archer.

Descended carefully into the 'abandoned area' (objective complete), looted the place, not forgetting to take the goblet in Glendower's garten, then roped up at the W end to reach an apartment. Here's where I took a definite Supreme bust: I could not grab two coins (2) near a sleeping zombie without a groan from the bugger:
https://i.imgur.com/w2XuNGu.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/Z50woEP.png

Then descended back into the abandoned area, and took the entrance to a 'technical' area leading to sewers. And here I faced the first questionable situation. I passed a corpse (which did NOT alert) on my way to some loot (75), but, after taking the loot, the corpse was transformed into a patrolling zombie. I believe that it qualifies as scripted response, not as an alert to me, but I am open to feedback.
https://i.imgur.com/gvLJZgv.png

I took the ladder down into the sewers, headed S, then turned left, emerging in the haunted area S of Industrial Tenements. Immediately on the right, I stumbled by pure chance by a very difficult piece of loot (goblet on inner windowsill) - I actualy roped into that room, but I would have never thought to look up there. Dodging the patroller wasn't exactly easy, but not very difficult either. Anyhow, worked that area like 3blue1brown would do (see below), ending in its NE corner. I had to carefully grab a goblet near a sleeping zombie, which I managed to do without reactions, after which I could rope to a spider-infested apartment that eventually led me to the W side of the canal area, completing the loot objective in the process of cleaning up the area.
https://i.imgur.com/0VHLB2u.png

Hawtrey Manor

Dropped on the manor fence/wall, then from the ledge to the garten. Took the coins from the fountain and picked the lock to the basement chute. Nothing there (yet), so I went up to the ground floor, cleaning it from W to E, taking three portraits in the process. The zombie was easy to avoid. In my blind run I did not touch yet the chest in the music room (reloaded after whispering started), so I had to come back to it. But it only opens the bedroom door, therefore as long as one doesn't touch the idol it's all good.

Roped up in the NE room to the empty upper floor, and went from E to W this time, Apart from loot, I grabbed two further portraits. Ignored the idol for now, roped up - first in bedroom to find a well-hidden candlestick, then, from the 'tiara' room, up to reach the attic. Easy to sneak around the patroller. Went again from W to E, picked the sixth portrait in the 'caged ghost' room, then reached the room from where I could drop to the blocked SE bowfront room (full of loot, but also hosting the seventh son of the seventh son - objective complete).

Used the rafters in the E area to reach on opening in the roof, leading to an imposible-to-reach balcony with a skeleton holding a diamond (100). The last questionable situation regarding ghosting: taking the gem blows the skeleton apart. If this is deemed to be 'property damage' (whose property?), then even ghost rules are violated - meaning the Perfect Thief is busted; regular Ghost and Supreme Ghost can still be achieved by simply skipping this diamond. I left this at the end since it spawns an aparition nearby. Not difficult to dodge, but ...
https://i.imgur.com/3p9Cgg9.png

Then went back to bedroom, got branded, and looted the only room in the upper floor protected by a glyph. From there, I dropped back to gound floor, then took the stairs to now-accessible basement. Found both needed readables (but one of them suffices to complete the objective), then went back outside via the same chute used for entrance.

In the canal area, there a small room S of it accessible by chains, as well as some loot at both ends. In the house at the W end, I dropped into a basement patrolled by a smelly zombie, which offered loot and a way to go back to the haunted area S of Industrial Tenements. I took the sewer, this time eastwards, dodged the crayman, and ascended the ladder into the prison area. Looted it, then came back to sewers. Used the glyph to access the alchemist's creepy storage and the ground floor without having to lockpick the door from sewer, looted it with big satisfaction, and went outside to finish the level.

Ghosting considerations
I definitely failed Perfect Supreme Ghost, due to the alert given by the sleeping zombie by the coins. I tried (but not for too long) to reach those coins from above, or from the corner of the room... in vain.

Both regular Ghost and Supreme Ghost are easily achievable, the only question is how much loot must be skipped.

* If none of the above questionable situations is bust, then I can keep Perfect Thief, and Supreme Ghost is 2gp short of max loot.
* Otherwise, it's either 75 (for Supreme: 77), or 100 (102), or 175 (177) short of max loot.


PS: my (https://1drv.ms/x/s!AlhGhZZwQldHiX6PTH0gdjDIldZY?e=nVwapP&nav=MTVfe0Y0NEQ1RUQ2LTlCMDctNDUxOS05NDcxLTFCMUU2N0NBRjBGRn0) lootlist (the complete campaign is work in progress)