FMs - Ghost/Perfect Thief Results (Part 9) [SPOILERS]

klatremus on 9/5/2023 at 22:18

True, though I've been able to avoid all busts except for the first cell and last bunch of guards in the attic. They are super frustrating.

klatremus on 18/5/2023 at 23:42

Game: Thief 2
FM: Patriot, Mission 2: Prisoner

Ghost - Failed
Perfect Thief - Failed
Supreme Ghost - Failed
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 1:01:46
Loot - 825/1000 (Supreme: 800)
Pockets Picked - 3/18
Secrets - 1/3
Locks Picked - 2
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Innocents Killed - 0, Others Killed - 1
Consumables - 2 Water Arrows & 1 Invisibility Potion
Bodies Discovered by Enemies: 0

See the entire report with screenshots (https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2.htm) here!
Loot list (https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_L.htm) here.
YouTube let's play (https://youtu.be/O6JcjyEUzro) here!

Comments:
Prisoner carries on the solid design and story from the campaign’s opening mission. A very different setting from the open city; we are now thrown into a claustrophobic prison, having to manage a jailbreak. Zontik’s talent continues to shine, but he cranks up the difficulty and tension. You have been warned.

I was imprisoned by the city watch and my main objectives were to break out of my cell, retrieve my belongings, and escape from the Jailrock facility.

South Tower
In order to leave the cell, I had to alert one of the guards. I couldn’t grab his key without him noticing. He either went into hunt mode, in which case he usually triggered the alarm, or he ran straight for the door and got electrocuted (image below). His death and the lights turning off were immediate and unavoidable consequences of completing the mandatory objective of leaving the cell, so those were excused. But alerting him before any of that happened, was not. You are not allowed to alert enemies even if they end up dying. Silly I know. Ghost busted early.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image001.jpg

In the basement, I had to turn off the watcher for the belongings room. It was staring straight at the shelves. I also needed the repairer’s key for later. Luckily, the repairer himself would eventually disappear so that I could return the key. Managed to get the purse off the stationary guard on this floor without any alerts. He saw me through the door, but it was such an acute angle that I could dart past his view quick enough to avoid the comment. Did the same thing going back. I couldn’t come from the north, as a prisoner alerted to me from his cell.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image002.jpg

On entering level 2, I had to douse the gas lamp across the hall (image above). The nearby stationary guard alerted to hunt mode if not. I tried rushing out and hide in the dark bedroom to the southeast, but he still second alerted, albeit sometimes with a delayed reaction. The patrolling guards also alerted with a comment when passing, spotting the lamp being out. Occasionally they would relight it as well. This was undesirable, as it was too difficult to circle this floor unseen with that lamp on. The south hall had a hammerite prisoner patrolling his cell who also could easily see me. I managed to time the patrollers and get through this area with no further busts. There was no loot on this floor, only a staircase to the next level in the southwest.

The top floor was easy. The biggest problem was timing the guards when turning off the security cameras to reach the main building. The guard upstairs was no issue, but I had to be lucky with the two patrollers on the floor below. I got through without any alerts in the end. The lockpick was a long one, but I had around 5-10 seconds left to spare after closing the door.

Main Building
The top floor had only one problematic room, the kitchen. A drunk guard was too close to the staircase door to sneak by unnoticed. She didn’t give first alerts, but still caught me. I had to nudge her over about a foot or so in order to get the loot downstairs (image below). This wasn’t allowed for Supreme, so I skipped it for that mode. Dropped from the archive room to the downstairs offices.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image003.jpg

The lower floor was super tough. I couldn’t get to the north tower from the staircase, so I used the office instead. I still got a first alert leaving the doorway from the guard to the south. I had to turn off the lamp in the guard station outside the north tower entrance (image below). There was no way to fool the swordsman in there with it on. I got another first alert when opening the north tower door.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image004.jpg

I tried my best to get into the warden’s office for Ghost. There was a secret way to exit, so the only problem was fooling the watcher in the foyer (image below). I got to the dark doorway without alerts, but I couldn’t skip across the few feet to the office without it going yellow. That counts as a second alert. I tried 50+ times, but the camera hardly pivoted. The loot in there was thus skipped for all modes.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image005.jpg

North Tower
This place was utter hell. I stopped counting the amount of first alerts. I got a whole bunch, that’s for sure. The biggest problem was the combination of the watcher, the pivoting light, and the patrolling archer. There was only one piece of loot and a key to get, and those could be taken from the same cell to the east on level 4 (image below). The staircase had small patches of shade on either side, but I wasn’t safe from the archer. If he was on his way, I had to scoot into one of the floors and hide in the dark around the corner before proceeding. On the top floor there was a super annoying prisoner who often alerted the guard on the third level. He ran upstairs and started hunting. It caught me by surprise every time, because he didn’t say anything before suddenly appearing around the corner fully alerted. I made plenty of hardsaves to fall back on in case that happened. Finally got down to level 1 with the key, but this area was a nightmare.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image006.jpg

The basement and pump station was a breeze in comparison. I didn’t go all the way up to return the pump station key. Instead I dropped it on my way out. I would’ve taken so many extra first alerts that it wouldn’t have been worth it.

Leaving
After returning to the main building, I climbed up into the archive room using a rope arrow, then descended via the staircase. I could sneak past the window unseen, then drop into the sewers. Returned the repairer’s key and got the BMI key. I had previously lock-blocked the door to the watcher switch in the main building. By the BMI exit door, I had to douse the torch in order to sneak past the guard. Once I went down the first hallway a bit, several guards emerged from the door marked ‘?’ on the map. They ran super-fast and soon caught up to me. Furthermore, a stationary guard behind the next door also caught me running by. I wanted to avoid these busts, so I started experimenting. I fetched two crates from the south tower and tried blocking the door. This didn’t work. The door’s physics seemed way too strong and just pushed the crates away. However, a potion worked just fine. However, although the door didn’t open, the guards could still run through it. I thus had to use both the crates and a potion (image below). The crates prevented the guards from leaving and the potion held the door in place. The latter I could grab from the doorway afterwards. I could also reach the gas lamp and light it back up without the guard noticing. In the next hallway, I could now use the invisibility potion to pass the watch station unseen.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image007.jpg

Arriving in the BMI attic, one of the remaining objectives checked off. However, three more guards triggered when passing an invisible line. They also ran much faster than I did, but these ones didn’t come out of a door. They were instead hiding around a corner, between walls of large crates. I could trigger them without getting spotted, but they ended up blocking my exit (image below). There was no way of nudging them without getting seen, and even if that had been possible, there was nowhere to push them. If I instead used the invisibility potion up here, it ran out way before reaching the exit chute.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image008.jpg

After much experimentation, however, I found a way to block them as they started running from their starting position. I had to bring two more crates from the repair shop for this move. I had to inch out as far as possible without triggering their script, then toss the first crate along the ground, as close to the first guard as possible. I could see the front part of his face around the crate corner. The second one I had to wait with, as the guard seemed to hear the first crate, though he didn’t say anything or start moving. After a minute or so, I could toss the second one. The best method was to throw it high and have it bounce off the back wall, then land on top of the first crate. If it landed close enough to the guard, all three would be blocked as they attempted to run out (image below). I could now sneak south, though I can’t say for sure I wasn’t spotted. The guards kept running at full pelt, but they never gave any verbal or visual cue that they saw me, although I was brightly lit the entire time. Nevertheless, this was the best scenario in the attic by far.

Inline Image:

https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot2_files/image009.jpg

The mission ended with an awesome in-game cutscene. Really looking forward to the continuation of this campaign!

Notes:
- Alerted the guard outside my cell before he got electrocuted. Ghost bust.
- The kill in the stat comes from the first guard dying. I believe this is excused, as it is an immediate and unavoidable consequence of completing a mandatory objective.
- Turned off the watcher in the prisoners’ belongings room. Supreme bust.
- Doused the gas lamp inside the entrance to level 2 in the south tower. Also got first alerts in the process. Supreme busts.
- Had to turn off the security cameras twice in order to get to the main building. Supreme busts.
- Skipped a stack of gold coins worth 25 in the main building barracks for Supreme. The guard in the kitchen covered the exit too well.
- Skipped three pieces of loot worth 175 in the warden’s office. Couldn’t get in there without the watcher turning yellow.
- Got two first alerts and turned off a light to reach the north tower in the main building lower floor. Took two more alerts heading back. Supreme busts.
- Got a whole slew of first alerts (probably 10-12) in the north tower ascending and descending the staircase. Supreme busts.
- I did not return the north pump station key to the top floor for Supreme. It would require far too many first alerts. Dropped it on my way out instead.
- I did not return the BMI key to the south pump station. This would have required turning off the security cameras a third time.
- Doused a gas lamp by the BMI exit door. The guard also first alerted to this. Supreme busts.
- Blocked the door by the BMI exit door with a potion and two crates. The crates were not returned. Supreme busts.
- Drank an invisibility potion to pass the hallway with the stationary guard beyond the BMI door. Supreme bust.
- Although I blocked the last three guards in the attic with crates, I might have gotten spotted by the closest one. He didn’t make any audible or visible cues, however. I obviously didn’t return these crates either, which is another Supreme bust.

Galaer on 21/5/2023 at 18:13

Couple of thoughts about your latest report, klatremus:

1) About alert happening during escape from cell - you said that every alert is a bust, but that's not true. Scripted alerts are excused. And this alert is pretty much the same as scripted alert from taking the Eye in Return to the Cathedral. First of all both alerts happened even though enemies can't see you or hear you, you also don't trigger any mechanism. Both have special circumstances. In RotC undead go into short search mode, quickly calm down and then start doing new patrols. In Prisoner alerted guard run straight to cell door even though he should first to go into search mode, because he doesn't know where we are. Another thing is about alarm - guard will always launch alarm if you didn't prepare setup to kill him, but never do that when you made setup.

Also you may say that alert in Prisoner is normal while alert in RotC is special, but that's not true. Scripted alert in RotC can be triggered before grabbing Eye by alerting haunts. You can do that by shooting broadhead arrow into wall while hiding in shadow. Then red smoke around Eye happens, undead go for short search mode, quickly calm down and initiate new patrol routes. So what is called scripted alert is actually still just a regualar alert. That's more reasons to believe that alert in Prisoner is scripted and can be excused for ghost mode. And not because of escape objective like you say in video. I'm going to explain why your idea is bad in 3rd point.

2) About attic situation - in your video you mentioned in humorous way that you don't know if guard see you, because he's not audible, so I thought you are just joking. But in your written report you are extremely serious about that, so I'm going to tell you that yes, he definitely seen you. First red flag is fully bright light gem. Second red flag si that these guards can see through boxes, which you demonstrated in video - guard goes into search mode before emerging from behind crate and then immediately runs towards you. Third flag is changed direction of running. You demonstrated in your video that unalerted guard run along row of crates on the right. So he would take wider turn to run there. Then why in your final run front guard tries to run along single box on left side? Answer - because he sees you and he runs towards you.

That's why this is definitely a ghost bust. I mean you made really good job with ghosting first pursuit. If only you could ghost guard post without using invisibility potion you could drink it in attic and ghost second pursuit. But you said it's impossible, so that's really unfortunate.

3) About your idea of excusing busts for the sake of escape objective - you may not realize it, but these objectives are more frequent than you think and appear in almost every mission. They may sometimes use synonyms like "leave" ("leave mansion" is popular), but also "return to starting point" is also escape objective, because you escape from area you entered to go back to where you started mission. Also simply "reach goal" can be understood as escape objective (Killing the Timer). There are objectives that doesn't suggest moving, but can be understood that way. For example in Virtual Asylum is "survive castle's wrath" which can be understood as "go through castle to the end" or even further as "escape from castle". In other words your regular exit objective that completes the mission counts as escape objective.

Some older missions has only one objective to escape (Killing the Timer and Virtual Asylum for example). Based on your idea every bust happening in these mission should be excused for the sake of escape objective at the end, which means these mission are by default successful to ghost. And in case you complete every other objective you could do any bust you want for the sake of escape objective at the end. For example in Escape after reading info about Constantine's plans you could do regular knockout/kill run and excuse everything for the sake of escape objective at the end.

And let's not forget about negative consequences of completing regular objective when only escape objective is incompleted. For example in Tears of St Lucia alert from sabotaging statue happens slightly after completing it's objective and we have only escape objective to complete. Then shouldn't we count this alert as part of escape objective and excuse it. The same with leaving kill objective as last regular objective. Other enemies can hear as killing target, but it happens when only escape objective is active, so shouldn't it be excused as part of escape objective?

One more thing, in this game are also enter objective and it's pretty much reverse escape objective. Objective still tells us to go to different area like escape objective. So every bust leading to completion of this objective should also be excused, right? For example in Spy intended way to enter building is through sewers and it leads to damage property, but because it's on path to complete enter objective it should be excused, right? And sometimes enter objective is also exit objective completing mission. This happens in series and campaigns. So that means a lot more ghost busts can be excused.

So you see, one exception leads to another exception and suddenly major number of ghost busts ever reported can be excused. This changes focus of ghost mode from "How to avoid ghost busts?" into "How to use escape objective to excuse all ghost busts?". Ultimately this idea will make ghost mode way easier and boring to play. And that's why I'm against your idea.

klatremus on 22/5/2023 at 05:35

Quote Posted by Galaer

Scripted alerts are excused.

Hmmm...let's take a look at the rules, shall we?

12. AI behaviors caused by programmed scripts and not caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed, but should be verified by the ghosting community before a success can be claimed. An example is the archer fight in Life of the Party.

Here, the principle is based on Garrett not being seen or heard. The example is Life of the Party, where you are just crossing an invisible line and have no interaction with enemies when the fight starts. How do you know the guard in the prison is not detecting you when trying to grab his purse? You are comparing to normal behavior of guards, but these guards are not behaving normally at all. Their alert level is cranked up to max. The other guards that are patrolling go to hunt mode every time they hear a door open or close. Guards never do that normally, does that mean those alerts are scripted also? The point isn't to excuse all scripts, the point is to not penalize the player when something happens as a part of the game's story and it is not based on the player's interactions with enemies.

Let's continue:

Melees that occur beyond Garret's control, as part of a game script, are allowed. An example is the fight between archers in Life of the Party, which is caused by Garrett approaching an area, even if he is unheard and unseen. Another example is the Night of the Living Dead event in the Fan Mission Calendra's Legacy.

Again the example is Life of the Party, and the other is Calendra's Legacy where you are talking to Mercedes in her hotel room when suddenly fights start in the streets. The point is, it has nothing to do with Garrett interacting with enemies.

Some alerts that are caused as a scripted reaction to meeting a mission objective, even though Garrett is neither seen or heard, may be allowed if agreed by a consensus of members of the TTLG ghosting community. Such alerts that have been allowed in the past include the silent alarm when taking the Eye in Return to the Cathedral and the alarm when taking the Talisman in Undercover. Since such consensus may be difficult to obtain, it is preferable to treat such events as busts.

Again, the two examples here are based on Garrett obtaining an objective. The first is taking the eye which is a required objective. You compare it to shooting an arrow in the wall, which is not an objective and the enemies are then waking up because one of them heard you, so that's obviously a bust. Taking the eye you can do without anyone actually hearing you, and you are not interacting with an AI, only taking an object. The other example is the Talisman in Undercover, again you are taking an objective but never interacting with an enemy. Thus these are not comparable at all to trying to steal a key off a guard's belt, which is clear interaction with an enemy. And the final sentence is also key, unless the situation is very clear and the general consensus is in agreement, it's a bust.

And more:

So long as you do this without alerting any AI, including (for example) the one who must be killed, and so long as you do not break any other rule, it is OK. It is not acceptable, however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective.

This to me fits perfectly with what is going on here, whether this alert is scripted or not (which we have no way of knowing).

Based on all these rules, would you say that they give off the vibe that all scripts in the game are excused? Even when the player is directly interacting with an enemy, to the point of trying to pick someone's pocket and the enemy reacts with an alert? Not to me.

Quote Posted by Galaer

In Prisoner alerted guard run straight to cell door even though he should first to go into search mode, because he doesn't know where we are. Another thing is about alarm - guard will always launch alarm if you didn't prepare setup to kill him, but never do that when you made setup.

This is simply not true. The first 5-10 times I did it, the guard turned on the alarm even though I had connected the wire to the lamp. He even went into hunt mode a few times before reaching the door. He didn't do that for me in the video because I frobbed the key when he was very close to the door. I did that on purpose because I didn't want the alarm on. If you wait and frob it when he is farther away he usually turns on the alarm, and sometimes enters hunt mode.

Quote Posted by Galaer

Third flag is changed direction of running. You demonstrated in your video that unalerted guard run along row of crates on the right. So he would take wider turn to run there. Then why in your final run front guard tries to run along single box on left side? Answer - because he sees you and he runs towards you.

Uhm...I had placed two boxes that they can't run through. That is why he is trying to run on the inside of the boxes, Galaer. In my playtesting they occasionally ended up running around the boxes on the backside if they could fit through, and then they ended up running far along the right side as they passed me. So their direction is much more dependent on where my box placement than them seeing me. I agree that they likely see me, because I am red, but they don't give any visible or verbal cue that they do. This is the point that I argue in both the video and in the report. So again, they might see me but there is a chance they don't. There is simply no way of knowing, but I agree that they probably saw me. But I did this move because probably only 1 of the guards saw me, not all 3, and they don't catch up to me, so it was the best possible scenario for Ghost/Supreme.

Quote Posted by Galaer

Based on your idea every bust happening in these mission should be excused for the sake of escape objective at the end, which means these mission are by default successful to ghost. And in case you complete every other objective you could do any bust you want for the sake of escape objective at the end. For example in Escape after reading info about Constantine's plans you could do regular knockout/kill run and excuse everything for the sake of escape objective at the end.

Where are you getting all this from exactly?? I totally agree this should never be allowed. I was simply implying that if there is an objective to achieve something, and there is a puzzle element that is intended and unavoidable but that might have a bust embedded in the necessary gameplay, there should be more leniency to accept it. I was not saying you can accept whatever bust you want, that is absolutely ridiculous. In this case, alerting the prison guard is the intended way to solve a puzzle to complete a mandatory objective, and that guard is also supposed to die as a part of completing the objective. Personally, I think the rules should allow such situations, but I don't decide the rules and I accept that it is a bust. Of course you cannot use that to excuse any bust that you feel is necessary to complete an objective. The 4th rule I quoted above says exactly the opposite.

Quote Posted by Galaer

For example in Spy intended way to enter building is through sewers and it leads to damage property

If you are referring to unscrewing the valve that falls to the ground that allows you to flood the sewers, I don't think that is property damage at all. Damage involves using a weapon or an item or excessive force to break something. Here you are simply turning a valve until it falls out. It is already weakened since you only have to turn it once, and you are not using force or weapons.

Galaer on 22/5/2023 at 14:16

1) About escape - you said that guards do not behave normally at all and their alert level is cranked to the max. But that's not true. After escape if you try to steal keyring from any of these patrollers, none of them alert. And logically speaking, during blackout they should be even more sensitive, but they behave normally.

2) About RotC - I mentioned arrow to explain that what is excused in rules is regular alert. Maybe you don't remember, but in your supreme ghost run you managed to avoid this alert entirely. This proves that this alert isn't part of a script. And yet it's excused in the rules. Also have in mind that if you let them spot you or land loudly on metal when grabbing Eye, short alert will change in long alert. This alert is short, because they barely see you and can happen in other parts of the game. What happens is probably after grabbing Eye closest haunt go into new patrol route and sees Garrett, but for very short time. Garrett drops in full shadow, so haunt doesn't move to his position and just do search mode in place and alerts other undead. Since he barely seen him, alert is very short and soon after undead returns to new patrols. In your video you were fast enough to avoid this alert. Because it's so hard to avoid it everyone assumed it's scripted.

3) About attic situation - did you test guard's turning direction by using invisibility potion? If not, you should try. Also I wonder, after blocking guards you moved slowly. What if you would strafe run into passage and from far away observe these guards. If they didn't see you they should have slightly different direction of running than run towards you.

4) About Spy - situation in sewers is damage property and it's done by you turning valve, increasing water pressure in weak pipe, breaking it and causing flood. It doesn't happen on it's own, you did that by turning valve. This is the same situation like in Ruins of Originia 2 - bots activation requires pressing switch. You don't lure bots or monsters to each other, so based on your logic it also should be excused. You just press the switch and in Spy you just turn valve. That's all. Look, this is definitely damage property caused by you, so you should avoid it. Luckily there is another way to complete this objective, so use it.

5) About escape busts - first - in your videos you never mentioned that you want to excuse these busts, because they are puzzles. Second - can you really call basic interaction "key item to object" a puzzle? I think puzzles require thinking and this interactions are pretty easy to figure out. Also there is a lot of them. This is core mechanic in this game, so you want to excuse quite a lot of busts. Third - maybe you don't remember, but we had this conversation about damage property rule in the past. I was the one saying that these interactions should be excused, because they don't require any weapon, which objects aren't removed by force. The one who opposed this idea was you. You said that method doesn't matter, the most important is result. So don't randomly change your opinion just because you encountered this situation. Just stick to your past opinion, please.

klatremus on 22/5/2023 at 15:58

3) In ruins of originia you are not violating property damage rule, but causing enemies to fight each other. That's directly against a rule and cannot be spelled out any clearer. I don't see how you can even compare those situations.

I'm curious as to which situation you are saying you don't use force or weapons or items that break something when I said it is still property damage? Are you thinking about use of bolt cutters to break lock in Turnig of the Leaves? That's the only situation I remember. But there you are using an item that destroys a lock, and breaking locks are even mentioned in the rules counting as property damage. Same situation is in Spy using classcutter to break dome is also property damage. Using a valve to remove it is not breaking anything. You are not using water pressure like you say,because the water comes out later, when you are turning a second valve further down. The first valve drops because it is already weak, otherwise it would never fall from just turning it. It's exactly the same as the weakened wall in Sound of a Burrick in a Room. We decided since all you're doing is pushing on the wall with your hands and no item or weapon or force is used, you are ok. That is exactly the same situation to me, or pushing that wall is even worse, but it was allowed.

And I'm sticking to the rules and the examples in the rules, which you never seem to do. I keep referring to and quoting rules, because that's what the busts should be based on,not our own opinions. You seem to refer to a lot of other missions and situations that don't aways compare. Go to the rules and use them instead. Then you will see that the examples for property damage is breaking glass, cutting banners, breaking locks, breaking crates so they shatter using force. Turning a valve is very different from any of those.

Galaer on 22/5/2023 at 17:00

Quote Posted by klatremus

Completely wrong. By Ruins of Originia example I meant the way bust works is the same. You just press the switch, it doesn't cause infighting on it's own. Bots seeing monsters is causing infighting. I watched video to check situation in Spy. So interacting with valve makes it fall. There is no 2nd valve, there is just lever and gear. I would still say that turning valve to drop and expose hole in pipe is still damage property. Valve would never fall without you using it, not in this game at least. If it wouldn't be damage property, then valve would fall by frobbing, but without turning or it could appear in your hands. Turning indicates that you were using some force to remove it. Maybe valve isn't old, but you just remove it forcefully. After all, removing this valve is absolutely necessary for Garrett to cause flood and raise to basement.

As for your curiosity I'm not talking only about your damage properties. I'm talking also about my examples and you squashed them as busts. And you call Heartcliff Islands situation and Prisoner escapes from cell "puzzles", because they lead to completion of objectives later on and because they are intended and designed by author. That's what I understood at least. But they are just basic interactions. And bolt cutter and glasscutter interactions could also be called "puzzles", because they are special interactions created by author. You say that they aren't allowed "puzzles", because they are forbidden in rules, but rules have no space to cover every possible situation. For example in Accountant to get to one of objectives intended way is to cut fishing net to drop crates over electrical floor. There is nothing in the rules about cutting fishing net, but still you said it's damage property. So this reasoning is wrong. So some "puzzles" are excused by you and some "puzzles" aren't and I don't understand why. Your logic doesn't make any sense for me. I am happy that I didn't checked my old reports yet, because right now I'm extremely confused what for you is excusable damage property and what's not.

klatremus on 22/5/2023 at 18:07

You and I just disagree on what is "damage" then. I wouldn't say a valve falling out of a pipe is damage. Not when the examples in the rules list things like shattering glass, breaking of crates, breaking of locks, cutting banners. The valve falling is more comparable to removing a loose brick in a wall, or removing a panel that cannot be put back. Those can be removed because they are already weak and loose, otherwise they wouldn't. Here, this valve would never be possible to remove unless it is already weak and loose. You are not using any item or weapon or force to make this happen. Turning the valve is not force that constitutes damage. And whether you push a button first to me doesn't matter. If in Ruins of Originia you would push the button and instead of robots becoming active instead a glass would break, that would be property damage. If you push a button and a panel falls from the ceiling, that is not property damage. But hey, you don't have to take my word for it. I am no more authority on these rules than anyone else. You are perfectly in your right to call it property damage and say it's a bust. I won't.

And no, for Supreme you cannot enter by other method because you still have to make it back to the basement room with the grate where the guards are, and that triggers first alerts, so you have to enter via sewers to avoid that.

For your last point, I used the word "puzzle" just to refer to situations that are vague in the objectives and involved some sequence of events that the author intended. And I specifically said only when they were tied to an objective. The Heartcliff Islands break of cell I wanted to excuse because you can reset the gate so that it isn't compromised and still functions like a normal gate. Plus the objective said "break out of jail", which does at least heavily imply you need to somehow break your cell gate. The bolt cutters and glass cutters are not tied to objectives at all, and they end up with an irreversible situation and you are using an item that obviously uses excessive force. You are cutting the lock apart, or cutting the glass apart, that to me is very different from turning a valve.

I am sorry you are not understanding my reasoning. I suggest reading the rules and interpreting them the best way you can, instead of only interpreting my interpretations or previous missions that don't always compare.

Galaer on 22/5/2023 at 18:27

Put yourself in Garrett's place. He can't pray that in sewers is old valve that will fall on it's own. He must break it forcefully to create flood. Otherwise he will be stuck in sewers forever and bomb from bracelet will eventually kill him. So that's why it's more likely it's a damage property.

As for my example about Ruins of Originia I made it, because I didn't remember how flood in Spy is caused. I took info from your description that flood happens after using 2nd valve and that's when 1st valve falls. This would count as delayed damage property, but since 1st valve is necessary to use 2nd valve I thought that this is a case of delayed bust and you argued that you just used valve. So I brought this situation from Ruins of Originia. But later I watched video of this mission and noticed it'a bit different situation and there is only one valve. I don't know why were you talking about it as first valve.

As for bolt cutters use you have objective that tells you to sneak into thieves hideout. How do you do that? Bolt cutters. Just like in Heartcliff Islands you can figure it out what to do. And again don't say that some property damage is allowed just because it's not mentioned in rules, because rules can't cover every possible situation. This is really silly way to excuse property damage. Just like Turning of Leaves don't tell you anything about breaking lock, same Heartcliff Islands doesn't tell you about breaking cell door. These situations are all the same, but you excuse one of them and not the other.

The one who should read the rules more carefully is yourself. Here is property damage rule. I bolded the most important words for you, because you forget about it:

"No property damage" means no visible damage. Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before. For example, if you drop a crate, it makes a noise indicative of damage. This is allowed until the crate actually breaks. The bashing of a door causes visible damage only when the door opens (the lock is broken). Items that disappear from inventory or when used do not count as destroyed. “Property” is defined as something that is fabricated by humans or other intelligent creatures (boards, glass, doors, machines, banners, etc). Natural objects like foliage, boulders, icicles, cobwebs, etc are not considered property and would not bust ghost.

klatremus on 23/5/2023 at 00:45

The main reason I judged Turning and Heartcliff differently is because the lock is definitely broken and impossible to reverse in Turning. The lock drops to the ground and the door is permanently unlocked. In Heartcliff, I just bent the middle bar to go outside after cutting it, then bent it back and could even frob the lever so the door became permanently locked again, thus reversing the condition close to the original. I agree there was a small cut in the top, so I accepted the bust after several players agreed. In other words, the end result was different, so I judged one being damaged and the other not.

What exactly makes you think Garrett uses so much force on the valve? There is no sound or grunt that he is pulling hard. All he does is turn the valve and it falls to the ground. What if instead he had frobbed it and it instantly went into inventory. Would you say it's property damage then? There is no sound of anything breaking, just that it gets removed from the pipe is all. What if there was boards blocking a passage and instead of breaking them with a sword you could instead frob them and remove them from the opening. Would you say that is property damage? Because that has been discussed before and when you just remove the boards by frobbing then it is not damaging the boards, just revealing the passage. That is the same here, you turn the valve and reveal the opening. I imagine someone could come back and pace the valve back in and turn it to make it stick again, so it is not damaged any more than it already was, just removed from its place. I think we just have to agree to disagree here, which is fine. I will not call it property damage in my report.

I really like your other moves in Spy however, especially getting to the balcony button and frobbing the lever in the temple. Looking forward to recording that later in the week. I will also use your method of entering Cog Tower by climbing the cable, but not to enter the first time, but instead later.