Galaer on 17/10/2021 at 18:36
ZAPOMNIANY LAS 2 (FORGOTTEN FOREST 2)
Polish mission with haunts and spiders. Lots of marble and obligatory tiny switches. In my test run haunt got stuck on stairs leading to 2nd floor at the end of long corridor. It's possible to get to 2nd floor by putting 2 crates on table and jumping there. Spider near stairs leading to 2nd floor of Library requires fast running from one dark pot to other.
The hardest challenge is opening Vault as it is making loud glass crashing noise. To avoid alerting haunt you must close glass entrance and quickly go through it. Luckily hitbox of glass door is generous and it looks like you are running through raising part of glass door. In Vault I use 4 explosive potions on crystals. It doesn't destroy them, but it deactivates their power.
STATS:
Time: 1:03:48; Loot: 6384/6734
Pockets Picked: 0/0; Locks Picked: 10
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 8/8
GHOST: SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: NOT POSSIBLE? In secret passage leading to Wine Cellar I spotted statuette above passage, but I couldn't grab it, because 3 wooden beams were in the way. No matter what I tried, I couldn't reach statuette.
Galaer on 17/10/2021 at 18:38
HAMMER ASYLUM
Save of this mission is called "Virtual Asylum". There is FM called Virtual Asylum and it's made by the same author, but these 2 missions are different. This mission doesn't end. I installed dml fix that was supposed to fix that. There is only one objective saying to get out, but before starting mission, objective mentions "How much loot you can get?". This suggests to me that I should try to get all loot, then I'm gonna return to starting point and use cheat to skip mission.
There is no weapons, so ghosting is encouraged. Only one door is opened. To dodge Hammerite you must jump on table and wait for Hammerite to go past you. On 2nd floor quickly run right to get triangle lockpick. Return to starting point for 12 rope arrows. Here ghost run ends as you need to rope up to roof above Garden. 2 Hammerites will spot you (ghost bust #1). Archer shoots gas arrows, so I used him to gas his colleague, then I'm going to room where I got rope arrows and close door, so archer will shoot into it and gas himself. I got caught into gas and lost 3 HP and unfortunately overwrited my save. Hammerite from little corridor will also alert. Just wait in room with rope arrows for him to calm down and return to his room.
In passage above Garden is key and switch. Return to 2nd fllor and open big purple box for 100 loot. Gate is opened, so go to Pool. Here is another Hammerite impossible to ghost (ghost bust #2). I just wait for him to fall into water and drown. In bedroom are 4 urns, which is the max loot for this mission. Time to return to starting point and use cheat to skip it.
Edit: After ghost run I got answer from fortuni who explained that to complete mission you must kill red Hammerite from big purple box room. So taking 4 urns from bedroom after Pool (ghost bust #2) and also visiting Garden (ghost bust #1) is unnecessary. It's impossible to kill Hammerite in one hit (ghost bust #3). I used 3 rope arrows to kill him. Weirdly enough, 2 novices near him don't alert. Then mission ends automatically.
STATS:
Time: 0:22:43; Loot: 180/180
Locks Picked: 1
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 23; Damage Taken: 3; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 1
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
Galaer on 17/10/2021 at 18:39
HGS - THE HAUNTED CHURCH
You just need to get all loot and the Eye. The hardest part is getting into secret passage behind altar in Church, because of many haunts and zombies patrolling this place. Also when entering bones will fall from ceiling and may alert haunt if he's very close.
STATS:
Time: 0:09:33; Loot: 600/600
Locks Picked: 2
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 3; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
GHOST: SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: FORCED
Galaer on 17/10/2021 at 18:39
LIVING NIGHTMARE
Mission in Hospital. It starts with falling fireballs. They alert everyone, but they are still neutral towards us. There is archer shooting Mr Oh Dear Sr, which is a timer to complete quickly 1st objective. You have around 4 min 21 seconds before he dies. I avoid triggering rapists objective as it leads to more busts. These couple of minutes I use to loot whole Hospital and then ride lamp above Reception to activate turrets.
All AI will start noticing us. Fall on pillar to not get hurt, then on ladder and open secret wall. Don't do it while explosions are happening, because ghost inside will alert. You can take right maks while crouch walking along wall and leaning for it. Afterwards wait couple of minutes for AI in Reception to calm down. Don't save/load as it's possible for normal people to stop moving in Reception, making the whole ghost bust here.Shoot moss arrow and rope down. Steal Crypt key and go there. Inside douse 8 torches.
In Crypt do everything you can before dealing with statue. You must destroy it (ghost bust #1). It's noisy, so you better use skull to close entrance to this room. Use blackjack for destruction. Then drop stack of fruits from fountains into hole and drop on it to not get hurt. Grab Hot Vase. In zombies area you must skip golden urn on the right, because entering this room spawns zombie looking in your direction and blocking exit.
To exit use west exit from Hospital and go to ramp. From it strafe jump and mantle on wall on opposite side and go to opened gate.
STATS:
Time: 0:24:41; Loot: 3355/4127
Pockets Picked: 1/5; Locks Picked: 2
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 1/1
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
Galaer on 17/10/2021 at 18:41
LOSER
PRISON
You start with 2 HP. At the beginning you must wait for Mechanist to go to his post, then read book. This spawns falling rocks and one of them destroys grate in ceiling. Then you must drop it on floor vent, so vent will gradually lower and fall on ground. Since this is connected to putting heavy weight on vent, I consider this as damage property (ghost bust #1).
After getting outside I took vine arrow and used on metal part of high wall. It's loud, but there is nobody nearby to hear noise. Then you need to make jump from not too high and not too low while grabbing vine arrow to avoid falling damage and barbed wire. What's interesting is that in this mission you have access to both vine arrow and rope arrows. Unlike other missions, taking rope arrow while having vine arrow, will not change it into another vine arrow. Vine arrow takes priority, but you can access rope arrow by shooting vine arrow into wood or selecting it through previous/next weapon buttons.
WORKSHOP
To get to the Workshop you need to use Crowbar on stone part of chimney in corner of Complex. I can close stone part, but since it was attached to 4 iron bars and I used Crowbar to raise it, I consider this another damage property (ghost bust #2). In Workshop take invisibility potion and strafe run along right shelf while light will go off to light switch. Take Scrambler and return to wooden ramp. To get out you must use invisibility potion. Use secret elevator leading to Tower.
TOWER
Tower is easy to ghost. There are 2 paintings that must be destroyed for optional objective. Wait for woman to go away, then put Scrambler near sleeping noble and frob Yellow Gem. This initiates scripted alert from noble, which I don't count as a ghost bust. This also summons 2 spider bots. Also script doesn't always start immediately. That's why after frobbing gem I quickly strafe run to ladder behind banner. On ladder I'm safe and spider bots will kill noble, which is one of objectives. Afterwards go to top and take Fuse from antenna. This deactivates all robots, which is excused by objective. As a side effect enemies will notice deactivated robots and alert to that. No idea if I should count that as a ghost bust.
All you need right now is to take Yellow Gem and get out. After a while naked woman ended walking into piano and previously patrolling woman stood in front of bedroom. Because of that I had no problem to grab Yellow Gem. Before you return to Workshop, there is one more thing to do - destroying banner on very high spot. Intended way is by shooting fire arrow, but this is too loud and will alert people from Tower. So you must climb up there and destroy it with Mace. Also turn off light before climb. Then shoot 2 rope arrow (1st lower, 2nd higher), so that you will manage to drop from lower rope to catch higher rope and mantle on banner. Climb on edge of small shelf and cut banner, then shoot another rope arrow closer to you and climb to the bottom. You should avoid fall damage by dropping from rope. Then climb on 2nd rope, grab 3rd rope, grab 2nd rope too, so you will fall on 1st rope. Grab this one too. You can't open gate, because you can only open it with crowbar. Gate has no lock, but I would still count that as damage property. So return to Workshop and open path outside.
RETURN TO PRISON
So now you need to return to Hermit who is imprisoned and release him. This will release all prisoners and they are your allies. To do that go to guard post and use lever. If you do it now, guard will survive and will keep alerting to prisoners and quickly calm down. To have him get killed you need to wait for patroller to appear. Guard will hear the fight and will leave his post. This will kill him. Read book near Hermit.
GUARD POST
Guard Post is accessible through 2nd floor window. Descend to 1st floor and open Main Gate. Be careful to not get spotted by watcher. Also turning off light will 2nd alert guard and soon after he will launch alarm. Also I'm leaving painting and banner for later. There will be full attack on this Complex and this guard will die. Visit also Tavern and douse candle and fireplace. Here you get access to other 2 gems. Also for sake of future attack, leave door opened.
WELL
To get to it you must shoot rope arrow into wooden wall on Tavern and jump on top of well above electric fence. Ghosting Well isn't hard. In dark tunnel it's possible to fall to small tree without getting hurt and you can destroy it, because it's not anyone's property. You can also try to jump and mantle to higher tunnel, which is much harder. Go around spiders and avoid owls, then just do climb to get 20 life arrows and return to portal. To get out you must climb to top of well and jump towards rope, then grab it and safely fall down.
ATTACK ON COMPLEX
Now prisoners should appear in Complex and fighting will start. Because of fights there will be Body Discovery stat. Go through Tavern to treebeasts pit and revive them. There will be more fight at the Main Gate because of that. Return to Prison to revive Hermit. This will let treebeasts to enter Complex and destroy most of enemies. Also here are 2 painting that you want to destroy. Mechanist from Guard Post will probably launch alarm, but soon he will die. Now you can go to Guard Post, turn off light and safely destroy banner and painting. Most of enemies will die, but priestess and training Mechanists should survive. Destroy rest of painting and go to Tavern. Take Pan and KO innkeeper, then bring her to boat at Docks and mission will end.
STATS:
Time: 1:15:10; Loot: 2350/2700
Pockets Picked: 3/4; Locks Picked: 3
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 1
Damage Dealt: 1; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Bodies Discovered by Enemies: 3
Secrets: 4/4
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
klatremus on 23/10/2021 at 04:58
Game:
Thief 2FM:
Ruins of Originia, Mission 2: Guilded RivalryGhost -
FailedPerfect Thief -
FailedSupreme Ghost -
FailedPerfect Supreme -
FailedTime - 2:09:04
Loot - 14666/14666 (Supreme: 13566/13566)
Pockets Picked - 9/9
Secrets - None
Locks Picked - 44
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Other Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 0
Consumables - 1 water arrow, 1 fire arrow, 2 moss arrow, 2 gas arrows, 1 broadhead arrow, and 1 flare
See the entire report with screenshots (
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2.htm) here!
Loot list (
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_L.htm) here!
YouTube let's play (
https://youtu.be/bMsKgfdIH-0) here!
Comments:While not nearly as epic or memorable as Mines of Margroth, Guilded Rivalry still showcases YcatX’s immense talent as a fan mission maker. We delve into the deeper ruins of Margroth and encounter trapped deities, a thieves’ guild, and more of Bantar’s creatures. Though it is an acquired taste, it is easy to see why this campaign is on many players’ all-time favorite list.
My main goal was to get through the mirror room in order to find Bantar’s lab. It was apparently located beyond a theives’ guild run by Guildmaster Zilfin. I had to steal four weapons and a contact book from Zilfin, while the lab held the Book of Darkness. My loot goal would be met upon taking the first loot item, since it all carried over from the previous mission. Finally, I was to leave through an Eastern Passage. Most of my inventory items remained from Mines of Margroth, so I already had quite a few objects in my arsenal that could be useful.
Mirror Room AreaGetting through the mirror room was easy once I knew how. I experimented for a long time during playtesting to understand how all the different paintings worked. I thought they had a link to the map with all the same symbols, but I was wrong. It literally took 2 seconds once I realized the solution. Beyond it, the painting on the wall worked like a ladder, which took me a while to realize. I tried with stackables and ropes before grasping the simple truth.
My first problem came in the upcoming hallways. Three ways led to the main cave, two of which went through hallways with blue crystals and some enemies. It was the same crystals from the previous mission that deal damage on impact. I could easily get past it as there were gaps along the wall where I could stay safely on the stone floor. A blue fiend was stationed close to either entrance to the exit staircase, both facing south. A wisp was located just at the foot of the staircase. It always alerted when I came from the southern hallway, so I figured it was also facing south. There is no visible front or back to wisps, so I couldn’t tell until actually alerted. Coming from the north didn’t alert the wisp, but I got spotted by the fiend. I could use an invisibility potion and get through clean (image below), but this was way too early to accept my first Supreme bust. Luckily, there was another way through.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image001.jpgThe third way took me through a rushing, underground river system. The current was extremely strong and swept me all the way to the end in a matter of seconds. About halfway through was a dangling rope from a dry cave above leading to some more loot. It wasn’t necessary to go to, but I always want to get all the loot I can for Supreme. I managed to get up there first using my speed potion carried over from mission 1. Then I read on the forum that you can get up there without using a potion at all. After a lot of trial and error, I found a fairly predictable method. You have to stay close to the bottom in order to fight the current better. Pushing against the water I managed to get into an air filled cave underneath the river. There was a fire down there that I had to stay away from. The aforementioned rope hung down into this cave also, and I could grab it close to the surface and climb it all the way up (image below). This was a very difficult move, but it avoided the use of a speed potion and has been reported by several players, so it’s definitely repeatable.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image002.jpgOn this floor, the only thing worth reporting was a trap room with a diamond in the ceiling. The trap got triggered by ten ropes being shot into some wooden pegs by the diamond, followed by fireballs being shot from the floor. I managed to avoid triggering it by silently mantling from the side and not by way of the main entrance. I had to use a rope of my own to climb up there and could grab the rope and land softly on the metal frame.
In order to get to the main exit cave, I had to keep following the river to the end. A tomb here had sliding door panels, controlled by a lever behind one of the pillars. I couldn’t flip the lever to close the panels and run out before they shut, so I had to use two potions to block the panels to keep Supreme intact (image below). If you don’t pick up any unnecessary items in mission 1, which strictly speaking is the most Supreme-like approach, you only start with one speed potion. In that case, you’ll have to pick up a different potion later, then come back to close the panels before returning the potion to its original location. I had plenty of potions in my inventory as it was. Busts from previous missions don’t carry over, so I was still good for Supreme.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image003.jpgThe whole system of talisman caves wasn’t difficult. There were 3 shadow burricks in the south that were impossible to pass, but I could navigate around them by coming from the northeast to obtain the earth talisman. There were also 3 patrolling thieves in the northwest, but they were easy to circumvent. The talismans were all protected by an elemental cloud, each of which had to be shot by their respective elemental arrow (image below). The talismans didn’t spawn until you did so and they were 100% necessary to complete the mission. Unfortunately, putting out the clouds meant removing light sources, evident from each room going dark. Although this is a design choice by the author and nothing to do with my ghosting ability, it ended up being 4 unavoidable Supreme busts. Sad but true.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image004.jpgThieves’ GuildWorked my way around the floor clockwise. Cleaned Residences A and B without issues. It was very tedious picking all the locks for the loot. There was no point to them either, as no enemy ever came into the bedrooms. Zilfin was in his own quarters in the northwest. I had to sneak in through the northern entrance (image below), otherwise he caught me. The hidden rooms behind him had no enemies.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image005.jpgI skipped the prison and the flooded area of the guild halls. They involved potential busts, so I’d tackle them later. After using the elemental talismans, I had to return downstairs and get the deity stones, which was no problem. They were used in the cave beyond in order to proceed. When using the stones, the crystal monolith on top of the red support structure broke (image below). This seemed like a pretty clear example of property damage, which is not allowed for any mode. However, it was a bust forced by the mission’s design and completely unavoidable, and thus easier to accept.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image006.jpgHad to descend to the caves yet again, this time in order to obtain the two mystic eyes from the tombs of Ov and Silvesta. I had to use a fire arrow in each tomb to clear the path. In both cases I checked nearby to see if anyone heard the blasts; neither the thieves nor the shadow burricks even flinched. Both eyes could be obtained without leaving a rope behind, but I had to make some unorthodox jumps and land in a mantle to avoid taking damage. Fully repeatable, so no issues.
Finally I could ascend all the way back to the snow cave entrance. Used my sword to hack away the icicles, which has been deemed allowed due to recent rule clarifications. Only objects made by intelligent creatures are now considered property, not natural objects like ice or rocks. Also had to use a broadhead on what I assume was a flat ice layer blocking the entrance hole. If it is supposed to be glass, then that was property damage and another bust. I couldn’t tell, but it seemed most logical it was ice.
Bantar, Bantar... and Bantar!!Lots of challenges in the lab area. The first came upon entry, where Bantar stared at his cloning device, but could spot me coming from the hallway (image below). Luckily, the lights within flickered and I could use that to dart in to where the first red assembly line archway provided hardcover. There were 4 patrolling fiends in the distance also, but they couldn’t see me from here. Now I could time the light gem and scoot over to the next hardcover. After the third one, I was permanently dark.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image007.jpgI could sneak over behind Bantar and whack him with my sword, but that didn’t kill him, so I needed two hits. Problem was, this always alerted the fiends. They heard the sounds from the sword or his squeal, I couldn’t tell which. After downing him, I got the lovely objective to kill his clones, all six of them! They appeared on the conveyor belt inside the cloning machine, spawning in hunt mode. I tried releasing both mystic eyes to take care of the clones. They did well for the most part, pelting holy water arrows at him, but they always attracted the fiends, to which they had no offensive power. The fiends didn’t take damage from the arrows. To them it was like getting hit by regular water arrows. The fiends also distracted the eyes, to the point where Bantar would get a few shots in and destroy them. I replayed the scenario like this probably 20 times, and not once did the mystic eyes finish the job. That was thus a lost cause. Plus, this was only attempting to kill the clones; I needed them to take care of the initial Bantar also. I had to find a different method.
I moved on to the inner chamber. I could follow the fiends counterclockwise around the central pillar without getting spotted. Two more fiends patrolled the area over by the lab room itself. Here was also a haunted fireball-shooting mask on the wall. It alerted with regular haunt gasps for first alerts, then started turning on the wall if second alerted. I found a route where I could traverse from underneath the first table over to the long table on the south wall without alerts ((
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image008.jpg) see image). However, when emerging in the southwest corner, I got spotted. The light from the burner on the table hit me before I could hide underneath the final table. The screen capture above to the right was the farthest I could get without Supreme busts. I thus retraced my steps and looked for a different solution.
Turning on the iron beasts to fight on my side was now a necessity, if wanting to stay undetected. Getting through the lab without a Ghost bust was impossible, so completing the objectives while staying concealed was now my primary goal. The bots did a great job at keeping it so. They had very accurate shots, much better than archers. I found a nice spot to hide along the eastern wall while monitoring proceedings (first image below). The biggest problem was that the bots’ bombs could ricochet off the wall and end up back at their feet. Two bombs like this and they were out of commission. It took a bit of saving and reloading, but that isn’t against any of the rules. One time, the surviving bot found its way over to the lab and started attacking the mask guardian. Although I was hoping it would destroy it, all it did was set off a chain reaction and blowing up all the explosives in there, while the mask still lived on to see another day. Instead, the most preferable scenario was for the bots to kill all the fiends, which they did after not too many attempts, but also lure over Bantar himself. The best scenario I achieved was the last iron beast killing Bantar plus one of his clones. After this I had to release the mystic eyes. Without the fiends to distract them, they efficiently killed the remaining clones (second image below). They often ended up inside the cloning machine killing the final two or three copies. In that case, the Bantars didn’t stand a chance. I thus ended up getting rid of all the enemies in here without ever getting spotted or dealing damage. Nice! The only bust the way I see it, was destroying the fiends and possibly also alerting the mask.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image009.jpgInline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image010.jpgBack in the lab, the mask was now in a constant first alert state. I could thus travel underneath the tables without further remarks. I could also grab all the goodies I wanted while hiding in the shadows cast by the tables. The Book of Darkness only appeared if I first took the other six books. None of them could be dropped back.
Guild HallsSince releasing Loknara, all the spiders were now allies of mine. I could thus safely release them from the cage holding the Dagger of Power. They positioned themselves in the northwest hallway of the prison area, attacking the first thieves that came along. The spiders ended up dying quite quickly, but usually downed at least one thief before they perished (image below). I know Ghost rule #5 says: “Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other.” However, I would claim that is not what was taking place here. First, I did not have the intention, nor did I draw any benefit from the spiders getting killed. Second, opening the gate shouldn’t have caused any fight, as no thief ever patrolled past the cages in the first place. It was only due to an apparent change in the spiders’ patrol route that they ended up in the same vicinity as the thieves. Since there is no way to enter the cage without changing the spiders’ placement like this, I’d say it is due to the mission’s script that the spiders died. I thus take no blame for their demise.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image011.jpgThe final obstacle came back in the guild halls, but it was a big one at that. I had to blow up the two boulders that blocked the path to the flooded cave in the southwest ((
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image012.jpg) see image). This was quite close to the kitchen, where a stationary fire elemental was placed in the stove. It alerted to hunt mode, along with at least one thief, as well as a mechanist worker bot. I tried using a mine under the water to muffle the blow, but the explosion still took place above the surface. A coal crystal or an explosive charge yielded the same result. I actually think those were louder than just a fire arrow. I accepted yet another bust and finished the mission from there.
UPDATE November 12th, 2021: With much help from Galaer on the TTLG forums, I’ve been able to avoid the vast majority of the Ghost busts in this mission. First, the boulders blocking the entrance to Zilfin’s contact book can be silently destroyed with a lit flare (image below). The worker bot can still alert to this, but only if it is nearby, which is easy to prevent.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image013.jpgFurthermore, Bantar’s lab can be approached from the back by blocking the rolling boulders from reaching the bottom of the ramp (image below). The mask guardian second alerts to hearing the boulders, but this isn’t considered a bust. The boulders trigger as a script when getting close to this area, much like triggering a conversation, not by setting off a trap. If bringing along 3 rubble pieces and a geode, after a few attempts they create a barrier providing enough room to squeeze past the boulders. Up above, you have to douse the torch by the first fiend, getting a first alert in the process. The rest of this floor is easy. This method of reaching the lab also eliminates the need to get the mystic eyes from the tombs, as well as skips the objectives to kill Bantar and his clones, plus destroying his cloning machine.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/RuinsOfOriginia2_files/image014.jpgLastly, you can prevent the spider-thieves fight when opening the cage to get the Dagger of Power. If the thieves are patrolling together, something they normally do when returning from Bantar’s lab, you can time their patrol and release the spiders just after the thieves pass the western hallway. That way after grabbing the dagger, you can quickly leave through the teleporter and cause the engine to shut off the thieves’ patrol due to lack of proximity. If the stats say no bodies discovered, you know you prevented the fight successfully.
Notes- Had to remove light sources to obtain each of the four elemental talismans. An author design choice, but Supreme busts nonetheless.
- Using the deity stones broke the crystal monolith guarding the entrance to Bantar’s lair. I interpret this as property damage and a Ghost bust.
- Mossed the ground when throwing the rubble pieces in order to block the big boulders. Supreme bust.
- Doused a torch when entering Bantar’s lair via the back entrance. Also got a first alert from the stationary fiend in the process. Supreme busts.
- Had to release 4 spiders in order to get Zilfin’s Dagger of Power. They normally end up fighting the patrolling thieves, but I left through the teleporter before they met, thus forcing the engine to shut off their patrol. Possibly an engine exploit and thus a bust to Supreme, but not a bust to plain Ghost.
Galaer on 23/10/2021 at 08:26
@klatremus: I played this mission a bit and right now I just entered Bantar's Lab. Few things:
- I don't think that bots destroying and alerting more than just clones should be counted as a ghost bust. True, you activated them, but it was their AI that caused this damage. The same goes for Mystic Eyes and spiders in Prison. I don't even know why you count bots situation as a ghost bust. Didn't you trigger thieves attack in previous mission and manipulated them to kill most of guards. This wasn't even connected to any objective, but you allowed that without problems.
Edit: I watched a bit of your video and I think that using Mystic Eyes should count as a ghost bust as they are part of your inventory. Because of that they should be used to kill only clones and not other enemies. If possible you should try to kill them after they do it's job or manipulate their AI to get stuck somewhere.
- crystal monolith destruction. If there isn't any readable that Bantar himself or some other intelligent creature created, I would count that as natural obstacle, so no damage property. It's possible that ancient people knew about this naturally regenerating obstacle and that's why they created this 10 talismans device to destroy it. By the way, I also think what you shot with arrow was ice.
- Contact Book. You said that you must use fire arrow to destroy 2 rocks, but weirdly enough you can use flares too. So, no explosion needed.
Edit: I heard your explanation about destroying rocks being property damage, because rocks were placed by somebody else. I read that Zilfin hid book there, but in his readable there was no mention about placing rocks in there. Is there any readable in Bantar's Lab mentioning that? Furthermore, I don't think that moving random rocks from one place to another makes it someone's property. Also I would avoid discussions about act of ownership. In other words, every object located in Thieves Guild belong to Guild Master as he's owner of this place. I really think that you are looking too much into this rule.
- Talisman of Fire - how did you get it? On my test run no matter what I did and no matter if door is closed, shadow burricks nearby will always hear explosion and 2nd alert to it.
klatremus on 23/10/2021 at 20:14
Thank you for your feedback, Galaer, but I disagree with every single argument you're making here, except for perhaps the boulders that block entrance to contact book. I agree boulders in general are not 'property', but if they are deliberately placed there by an enemy, I interpreted it as at least an arguable bust. There is no readable that says Zilfin placed the boulders there no, but one readable of his says he hid the contact book in that room. So I reasoned that logically he would have placed the boulders there in order to seal it shut. But I agree this might be allowed still, since they are boulders. I did not know about the flares, and that is a great find, because it will eliminate the bust of alerting the enemies using the fire arrow!
The bots destroying the fiends I see as the clearest bust in the mission. It is not comparable to the thief-guard fight in mission one, because that is just triggered by you starting a conversation, which is a script. Those have always been allowed to trigger for Ghost. And you say I "manipulated them to kill most of guards". I absolutely did not. All I did was trigger the conversation, the rest happened on its own. I even avoided opening a door to the shop, because I am not allowed to lure the thieves in there to kill the shopkeeper, even though I wanted the shopkeeper to die. In Bantar's lab I deliberately clicked the button because I needed the fiends to die, as the mystic eyes couldn't kill the clones on their own. It doesn't matter if it is Bantar or Zilfin's bots, I was the one turning them on, which I could easily have avoided. This is not a script, but instead a direct gameplay element with a specific purpose.
I also find it surprising you think using the Mystic eyes is a bust but not using the robots... The eyes only killed the clones but nobody else, and killing the clones is a direct objective. Killing the fiends is not, which the bots did. Plus they alerted the guardian mask in the next room too.
The crystal monolith is to me a clear creation of an intelligent being. It is even located on top of a symmetrical metal frame structure. How would such a structure naturally occur? You don't need a readable to tell you something like that is created.
The Talisman of Fire I got by using a fire arrow. I closed the door first, but I got no alerts. I've done this 3-4 times with the same result.
Galaer on 23/10/2021 at 20:57
@klatremus:
1. Boulders - when I went to ruined room my conclusion was that these boulders blocked passage due to bad condition of this flooded room. Boulders are heavy and Zilfin is a mage, so he's weak physically. Especially trying to put one heavy boulder on another would in flooded room would be really difficult. And since he was secretive about hiding Contact Book, I doubt he would ask anyone for help. Also what about destroying boulders leading to Mystic Eyes? You get instruction from deity to destroy them. Doesn't that mean that these boulders were placed by this deity and it's property?
2. About bots - I don't count that ghost bust, because you only activate bots. You have no way to control their AI. And I disagree with you about situation from previous mission - you also triggered conversation. You didn't need to go there as it wasn't connected to any objective, but you still triggered conversation. And then through lots of saving and loading you manipulated thieves to kill most of guards. That's the same situation, it's just trigger that changes.
3. Mystic Eyes - my reasoning is simple, Mystic Eyes are part of your inventory. If you would throw mine, then damaging random enemy or explosion heard by other enemies would count as a ghost bust. If you would throw frogbeast egg and enemy would see it or heard explosion, I would count it as a ghost bust. So if Mystic Eyes attack enemies and alert them, I count that as a ghost bust too. If it wouldn't be part of your inventory, but rather trapped AI, I would say it would be OK. But not in current situation.
4. Crystal monolith - I don't buy your speculation, I really think this is natural creation, not made by anyone else. These kind of crystals that look like they were shaped by someone intelligent appear sometimes in crystal caves in other FMs. So if there is no readable, yours theory is just speculation.
5. Talisman of Fire - I actually tried that and then quickly run to burricks and I would always hear their alert. Maybe I didn't try that hard enough. I'm gonna try this again during my ghost run.
klatremus on 24/10/2021 at 00:01
1. You have convinced me about the boulders, I agree they are not property, and we don't know if Zilfin put them there so that shouldn't be a bust. It could be him, but then again it might not be.
2. Here you are just using your personal opinion and not the rules. Rule #5: "Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other, with the exception of rule 12." Rule #12 then says: "AI behaviors caused by programmed scripts and not caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed." The difference between the two situations you are comparing is precisely what is stated in rule 12: Programmed scripts. Triggering a conversation is allowed as long as Garrett isn't seen or heard because it is a programmed script. Pushing a button that sets off combat bots that act as allies of Garrett in order to intentionally kill enemies go against rule #5 and it is NOT a programmed script as in rule #12. Also, saving and reloading is NOT manipulating AI. Manipulation is leading them in certain directions or causing them to perform specific actions, say by pushing them, blocking entrances or deliberately opening doors. Saving/reloading has nothing to do with the ghost rules and should not be included in the discussion.
3. The Mystic eyes become AIs when you release them from inventory, so they act exactly the same way as the combat bots. That's why I reacted to you allowing the bots but not the eyes. The reason I don't think the eyes are busts is because they are only attacking and killing objectives (Bantar's clones), and Garrett is never seen or heard in the process. It is not the same as a mine which is a weapon constantly and can be disarmed and retaken to become part of your inventory. You say: "If it wouldn't be part of your inventory, but rather trapped AI, I would say it would be OK.". They are trapped AI that get released once you use them. I never tried getting rid of them like you said, but I think if I did, I would have to kill them which would show up as damage and kills in the stats.
4. I am quite certain that 9 out of 10 people if you ask them would say the crystal monolith has been made by something intelligent, whether it be deities, humans or mages. Extremely few would say it more likely is a natural object that was created by random non-directed processes. If it was such a crystal placed in a random crystal cave sure, but not when it is on top of a metal framework in a room (not a cave) with statues and images on the walls. Sorry, but you'll never convince me of that one buddy.
5. Try it again. The sound of the fire arrow impact lasts a bit longer than it sounds, so don't open the door too quickly. Run over and lean into the door right after the shot and you'll hear they don't alert.