Komag on 13/6/2005 at 21:07
I downloaded the first Thief 3 FM (they're still working out how to get it to work, need a loader, etc), but it's got me thinking again...
The size of this download has me concerned. I'm strongly leaning toward finding a way to distribute very small packages, NOT ibt files, and require users to download the editor package just once. Yeah, it's huge, but if we don't do it that way then just 10 to 15 missions will suddenly be MORE huge with lots and lots of unecessary hugeness to follow forever after that.
For example, if people downloaded 15 missions that are all 35meg each, that's a total of 525meg. But if they downloaded the 322meg editor package and 15 missions that are all just 10meg each, the total is only 472meg. And the "deal" would get better over time, since the editor download is only once!
Imagine a year down the road and we have, say, 40 FMs. At that point you would have to download 3000meg to get them all, or download 322meg package and 400meg of FMs for a total of only 722meg.
If we can do it this way, it will be MUCH better for everyone involved, EVERYONE - we can all be winners!
rujuro on 13/6/2005 at 21:47
hmmm, not sure how downloading the editor package will shrink the size of the files that need to be distributed with a mission. Please explain.
I think it may just be an unfortunate (and expected) reality. When you're dealing with assets that are FAR more detailed, dense, and memory intensive, you pay the price in your downloads.
Modern content is just huge.
EDIT: Thinking about this a little more, are you suggesting getting people to compile their own IBTs? Ouch, that's alot to expect the end user to do.
Komag on 13/6/2005 at 22:05
I don't know, is it absolutely necessary to use ibts at all? Is there some possible way to cleanly play a mission that someone else made, just with the unr or gmp files?
If there's no other way than to play with an ibt, then you're right, there's no way we can expect folks to compile their own ibts, absolutely not. But if we can come up with a decent playable solution that avoids ibts, we're in business.
rujuro on 13/6/2005 at 22:23
IBT's compile all the assets into a single file to speed load times. So, unless people want to wait 5x?(estimate) as long to load (and reload), we are stuck with them.
Shadowspawn on 13/6/2005 at 22:31
What happened to the guys who were working on the FM loaders? Pipe up please! Where'd you go?
I was hoping someone (not me for a change) would figure out how to "patch" your install to run an FM, and then "unpatch" it later when you moved to another FM or uninstalled it.
Is that impossible? It seems that if we did it that way, we'd only need to ship the changes for an FM.
Another possible thought would be to have a simple program (part of the FM installer and a FM releasing tool) which would compare the critical files to a "base" copy of the Thief3 game files, and generate a change binary. That would be shipped with the FM, and the installer part could generate the updated files (ibt, everything you need). Of course, it would have to make a backup of the base files, just to be safe.
Aren't there some Linux hackers out there? Don't they have patch tools which can do something like that?... :erm:
sparhawk on 14/6/2005 at 08:28
How exactly are the misskions integrated with the editor and the game itself? Would be it be possible to extract the stuff from the editor, that is absolutely required, in order to play an FM without installing the editor? I'm not really interested in the editor and I don't want to add another few hundred MB just to be able to play an FM if it is not really needed. My thief folder is already about 11GB. :eww: :wot:
sparhawk on 14/6/2005 at 08:30
Quote Posted by Shadowspawn
Aren't there some Linux hackers out there? Don't they have patch tools which can do something like that?... :erm:
Writing such a tool is the VERY easy part. The hard part is to figure out what exactly is required in order to run such a FM successfully.
Durinda D'Bry on 14/6/2005 at 09:26
Shadowspawn Another possible thought would be to have a simple program (part of the FM installer and a FM releasing tool) which would compare the critical files to a "base" copy of the Thief3 game files, and generate a change binary. That would be shipped with the FM, and the installer part could generate the updated files (ibt, everything you need). Of course, it would have to make a backup of the base files, just to be safe.It is the same as I proposed (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1228590#post1228590) here . Since 2 guys have similar thoughts, it makes sense :)
bukary on 14/6/2005 at 11:09
What bothers me it that quite simple and short mission might be 50 megs download. We all know that not every FM is... good. I hope I won't have to download 50 megs with my modem just to find out that I downloaded few cubical rooms with several corridors and tons of custom textures or sounds...
We desperately need new reviews at The Keep. :)
And yes, where is DracFlamloc? Where is potterr? We need you, guys!
Shadowspawn on 14/6/2005 at 13:00
Quote:
Writing such a tool is the VERY easy part. The hard part is to figure out what exactly is required in order to run such a FM successfully
sparhawk,
Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe WE don't have to figure it out.
I'm only working from my Dromed experience, my knowledge of the T3 Editor is still weak. In Dromed, we had to make sure to include everything custom, textures, AI meshes, motions, objects, sounds. Often, something was forgotten, and not discovered until much later.
But, assume a FM designer has finished his/her grand work. For the purposes of releasing the mission, they have taken a clean T3 install and copied all of their modified files to the new install. Running the game checks out, so it's good to go.
Now, we run the developer side of a program, which compares this modified installation to the clean T3 install. (OK, we're talking alot of disk space right now, but stay with me). This program looks for EVERY file difference, figures it out, and saves the appropriate information. This file is compressed, and it is what is shipped as the FM. Doing it this way could include new scripts, custom meshes, animations, textures, the works. And the program does the heavy lifting, we don't have to figure out everything to include. Of course, if you dump unneeded extra stuff into the FM directories, it gets included too, so it's up to the FM designer to keep it lean. (The same as today, with Dromed).
On the other side (the player's installation), the client side of the program makes backups of the files to be modified (unless it detects existing backups), then effectively "patches" all the files which have modifications. This "SHOULD" make the install the same as the FM designer tested. To remove the FM, the backup files are simply restored, removing the modified ones.
The thing I'm unclear on is can we make a FM which runs on the unmodified Thief3 game, not the editor. Does the executable have to get patched? :erg: What else am I missing?
With Komag's contest coming up, as well as others, it would be nice to put this problem to bed. If only folk with the editor can play FMs, our community will shrink even more. It's too technical for many people to figure out how to play a T3 FM (including me at the moment).
I don't necessarily want to be involved in this (I've got other tools I'm working on), but if it's the only way to get it done, I'll offer my services. I don't want to get involved in the GUI, but I might be able to create the diff -> compress -> patch code.
Thoughts? Objections? Accolades?
