Nameless Voice on 19/1/2016 at 20:13
Wait until you realise that finishing the game means murdering 1-3 entire factions, (depending on who you side with) families and children and all... For no particular reason other than "but thou must" because there's nothing else to do.
Ostriig on 26/1/2016 at 17:04
I actually kind of appreciated that bit about the main plotline, I thought it was a solid step forward from Bethesda's previous titles. You're given the opportunity to do stuff for or with some of these characters, and then you're put in a position of choosing who to come at odds with. Even if they're not exactly deep, you can form some impression on these characters and I even struggled a little bit with my final pick. I liked the BoS better, but I figured that it made more sense, character-wise, to go with the Institute. I remember thinking "oh, bummer" when I shot Scribe Haylen, as opposed to when I finally got Glory to shut the fuck up.
Nameless Voice on 26/1/2016 at 21:17
In a way, but I felt there was no real motivation for doing it. You had to side with one of the factions, they all hated each other, but most weren't really doing anything noteworthy. Even the irredeemably evil faction aren't really doing much of anything. They're engaged in low-level and long-term evilness throughout the Commonwealth, but there's no particular big thing that they're doing that you feel urgently compelled to stop. You fight them because there's nothing else left to do in the game.
It also rather annoyingly made all of the factions completely set in their ways and didn't give even the slightest chance of negotiating or saying "no."
You literally get a quest from the BoS where they tell you to wipe out the Railroad, without warning, and you are suddenly hostile with the entire faction. You can't argue against it, you can't reject the orders, all you can do is not talk to the guy who gives it. And the BoS have no particularly good reason for being hostile to them, either. "This is a group we think might cause trouble at some point, murder them all please."
Jason Moyer on 27/1/2016 at 01:04
I'm pretty sure their entire MO is at odds with the BoS wanting to eliminate mutants and androids.
Ostriig on 27/1/2016 at 20:13
I thought the hostility between the factions made sense, at least the Brotherhood, Institute and Railroad have completely conflicting goals and the context lends enough urgency to them wanting to murder one another. The Minutemen are a little more to the side and this is reflected in their progression, but they're also the dullest faction available. You could argue that maybe, in the end, the protagonist wouldn't want to join any of these guys but then the only thing that would make sense would be to walk away. Which, technically, you are free to do. I mean, you do achieve what you set out to do, finding Shaun, prior to the "ending" itself. If you don't approve of what he's involved in at the Institute, nor do you buy into the ideologies of the Brotherhood or Railroad, nor even want to help the Minutemen consolidate (who would, reasonably, see "synth replacements" as a threat), then you genuinely don't have a horse in that race anymore. I suppose the only thing Bethesda could've done further is offer you an explicit option to everyone down and have the conflict play out in your absence, a sort of "canon ending" but that might present some issues from a gameplay perspective.
As for the lack of warning with that BoS quest, that looks like a designer's oversight. I went through the same thing but later was clearly warned with a pop-up before I chose the Institute over the Brotherhood, a quest which also offered me one last opportunity to switch sides. By the by, you're allowed to carry on with various factions in the third act, and they have different "points of no return" in relation to one another, I thought it was very nicely handled, in fact.
Jason Moyer on 28/1/2016 at 03:28
I'm at that I/B point of no return in my "explore everything" replay, and when I enter the teleporter room it clearly tells me that I'm ending my relationship with the BoS if I continue.
One thing I will say is that all of the later quests really feel like they're hanging together by a string, such as the Battle for BH and it really doesn't seem like Bethsoft put any effort at all into that part of the game or into accomodating a "fuck 'em all" playstyle. FO4 is a fun game, they've improved the shooting, the locations are generally fun to explore, and the character design is an improvement over 3 even if the companion implementation in particular is horrible. But my god the roleplaying aspects are just nonexistent. I don't know how they thought they could get away with some of the mechanical and narrative design stuff after seeing what Obsidian did with New Vegas. A much smaller studio managed to create a Third Act (as well as the rest of the game, really) that takes every variable imaginable into account when crafting the faction ending scenarios. Kill everybody, get certain groups to work together, piss off other groups, convince various final bosses to abandon the area, etc. And they managed to do the same thing in the DLC. I don't remember a point in NV where I was seriously questioning a character's motivations or reactions to how I treated them or something I said. Or not really understanding what I was supposed to be doing. There were clear choices and consequences everywhere, and they actually mattered.
So yeah, after about 2 playthroughs my review of FO4 would be: Dense world that is fun to explore, much improved gunplay and enemy AI, and everything else is kinda garbage. It's basically RAGE but generally better.
Ostriig on 29/1/2016 at 14:32
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
A much smaller studio managed to create a Third Act (as well as the rest of the game, really) that takes every variable imaginable into account when crafting the faction ending scenarios.
Not to argue the overall point about roleplaying being better in New Vegas, it was better than in anything I've played from Bethesda (faint praise as that might be). But - and correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I never took the game to completion, only to the point where I had to actually pick a faction - the plot structure in NV was fairly simple:
find Chandler, find magical macguffin, choose who gets the macguffin to secure your main ending. Don't even think that warranted spoiler tags. In this one respect, with regard to branching of the finale, I thought Fallout 4 did a better job than NV: you knock factions out of the game at different stages, can proceed in parallel with some and even change your mind partway.
Nameless Voice on 29/1/2016 at 15:24
You can do most of that in New Vegas too, because certain quests make you do things that alienate the other factions (mostly killing Legion or NCR guys), and you can knock out one other faction (House) early.
Also, two factions don't even care about the MacGuffin. You can side with them without it.
It's a bit less impactful because the two main factions both give you one "forgive all crimes" point during the main quest, which you can abuse.
Renault on 29/1/2016 at 16:51
Btw, is this a spoiler free thread? Because, I haven't finished the game yet, and had no idea I would be "murdering 1-3 entire factions, families and children and all" at the end.
But I guess now I know.
Nameless Voice on 29/1/2016 at 20:07
Hmm, yeah, probably should have spoiler-tagged that, though it was hyperbolic.