Aja on 15/1/2009 at 07:14
I agree with that. I started F3 just after a few weeks of Mass Effect, and couldn't believe how slow the F3 actors speak in comparison. I found that I began to skip a lot of the dialogue because I could read it faster, so I eventually just turned off the subtitles. After a while you get used to it, and since most of the dialogue is relatively similar, it's still pretty obvious when you can safely skip a particular line.
Toxicfluff on 15/1/2009 at 13:27
Quote Posted by Aja
After a while you get used to it, and since most of the dialogue is relatively similar, it's still pretty obvious when you can safely skip a particular line.
Yeah, this was my experience. I turned off the subs too, and after that it was listening the first time, and intuitively skipping repeats and old news.
Rogue Keeper on 15/1/2009 at 16:03
Quote Posted by Aja
Oh please. I've been studying literature for four years now. I can tell the difference between good and bad dialogue (Deus Ex's, by the way, is good, but I didn't find the gameplay as engaging).
Then I don't know how you can evaluate F3 dialogue as above average, but perhaps for current standards in the industry it really is. But I have memory! :rolleyes:
Quote:
The problem with those Black Isle/Bioware/Troika games is that they set out to be an interactive novel. If I want that, I'll read a fucking novel with
meaningful characterizations. I deliberately chose games whose writing works well within the context of their medium. Maybe you prefer reams of text to quick and effective dialogue, but don't try to claim from your pedestal that Bioshock or Half Life's writing is in any way inferior to the games you list.
I don't know who told you that those games are meant to be interactive novels, but most of the decent gaming world regard them as unforgettable peaks of CRPG genre. The closest thing to interactive novel is Planescape Torment, but that's only one title of several pearls. Would you call KOTOR and Bloodlines "interactive novels"? Black Isle/Bioware/Troika games are essential playing for everyone who has ambition to take the CRPG genre seriously. The strenght, depth and drive of the narrative was incomparably superior to RPGs of Bethesda school even back then in the days of Morrowind.
Bioshock is RPG-wise, as I recall, just dumbed down System Shock. Admittingly it had decent audiologs but there is almost no actual dialogue. HalfLife is a straightforward FPS so I wouldn't compare it with other RPGs in any way but technical presentation. Mass Effect is an example of good dialogue in modern CRPGs - most likely because it was made by Bioware who unlike Bethesda always knew what a good dialogue is.
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Do you all hate me now?
Speaking for myself, there is no real CRPGs among your "best dialogue" titles you have listed, that's why I'm questioning your history of experience with this genre and thus ability to evaluate it properly. Well maybe you do, but know that not everyone is spoiled by wave of convenient action-RPGs suffering from consolitis quite yet.
Zygoptera on 15/1/2009 at 19:21
Quote Posted by Aja
Do you all hate me now?
Can't say I see any reason to. Don't agree with you, but I expect I'll recover from the shock of someone having a different opinion to mine.
I would say that I don't think, PST excluded, that any of the BIS/ Troika/ BioWare games were going for interactive
novels- more like interactive TV series. Or interactive movies for BioWare's later games, which I tend to like a lot less than their predecessors. The approach of having a bit more "direction" balanced with a few more restrictions (something like the earlier Fallouts, BG2 etc) is one I far prefer to the scattergun approach of F3 or Oblivion, where I always end up wondering why I'm bothering around ten hours into the game. Something like Mass Effect on the other hand, goes too far the other direction, its story felt so directed, and so derivative, that most of the decisions devolved into "do I want to be default nice, or do I want the vague, possible amusement of being an arse- and much more likely appreciation of Jennifer Hale playing bitchy- because I just don't care about highly contrived moral quandry X"
Aja on 15/1/2009 at 20:52
Is everyone making a distinction between "dialogue", specifically, and general writing? Because I kinda wasn't. If you all are talking about the best written conversations, then my examples are mostly inapplicable. And are we limited to a particular genre? I see all game writing, regardless of whether it's a crpg or a shooter, as being comparable. So while Half Life 2 doesn't have brilliant conversation, the writing itself and its delivery are among the most natural and fluid in the medium.
Not have played a handful of these supposedly great CRPGs (never played KOTOR, Baulder's Gate, Planescape, etc), I suppose I shouldn't be discussing them. But when the term "interactive tv series" gets thrown around it kinda confirms my presuppositions about these games. Interactive novels (ie, literature) is what people tend to treat them as, when in reality they're closer to television? aah I'm not making any sense... even the best written games are so far behind actual literature that to hold them and compare them to that standard is next to useless...
Zygoptera on 16/1/2009 at 04:44
I don't think it's particular necessary to make a distinction between 'dialogue' and 'writing' in most cases, as they overlap a great deal, especially where computer games are concerned.
I also wouldn't make any particular quality judgment based on whether games are compared to books or TV, as it's perfectly possible to have a TV show which is better than a book- it's just that games, as with TV are much more a medium which relies on showing, rather than telling.
FWIW I'd have no problem calling PST capital 'L' Literature- if it could technically make the definition. I'd outright call it capital 'A' Art, in the Ebert sense. But then I'd also be happy to award TV shows a definition as capital 'A' Art, when appropriate.
Rogue Keeper on 16/1/2009 at 10:03
If F3 wasn't called F3 which kinda, you know, has ambition to keep the legacy going, then by all means - fuck it. Stalker has tried to implement RPG elements and dialogue and it's writing style (not talking about basic grammar) wasn't too good either, but it was something new, so I can overlook it and enjoy the atmosphere of the environment and action. But Fallouts are dear to people who know what they meant for CRPG history, and the texts in Fallout games are important and quite well done.
Th point is, Aja, that if you played some of these very well written games based on communication with the NPCs, there would be no difference for you between "DIALOGUE" and "GENERAL WRITING", the earlier would be absolutely essential part of the latter.
Matthew on 16/1/2009 at 15:11
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
I know you've been having some fun lately tweaking the noses of some of the more "gamez = srs biznis" members, and while watching people argue over GoW's dialogue and the like does amuse no one is going to fall for
that.
Really? I've been very impressed with the quality of the voice acting so far, though admittedly I think my delight with Colin Moriarty's voice actor has made me biased.
