Epos Nix on 10/4/2008 at 15:07
Buddhism requires just as much faith in something unprovable as any other religion. Hence it is also religion. While philosophy in and of itself is merely a posit on reality, Buddhism expounds on this and says that its philosophies contained therein lead to the end result of Enlightenment and Nirvana. While the Buddha acknowledged that a healthy amount of skepticism is beneficial when trying to reach enlightenment, ultimately its one's faith that propels them to practicing daily and striving for the end goal.
BEAR on 10/4/2008 at 18:40
For the record, I would concider buddism to be one of the more compatable religions, like The Raven said, its really more of a philosophy. The Gautama never intended (if I recall my buddism correctly) to be any form of "god", and only some followers interperated him as such.
I mostly concider "outdated" religions to be those that preach intolerance and clear factual errors. Im not even going to bother reading through scripture because I dont feel convincing you is important enough to warrent the effort. What Im talking about is things like "the world is 7000 years old" or "homosexuality is a sin". The type of things that make it hard for some practitioners to function in a world where homosexuality is common and science is intrinsic.
I also never said that everything about religions I find to be outdated is useless, there is wisdom in lots of things but that doesnt mean the entire package is really all that helpful. The other thing that I've pretty well been ignoring is where the idea that religion is all that moral to begin with comes from. I know it makes alot of claims, some of which are good and some of which are bad, but these things are not inherant to religion. Most of those values are taught by families and have nothing to do with religion at all. My parents taught me to be kind to other people, not because god said so or I would go to hell if I did not. The lack of a punishment had nothing to do with it, teaching by example worked much better.
So I hope I wont have to say it again; I'm not saying christianity needs to die or islam needs to die, I just think that the more we learn the less relevant these religions are becoming. I know it wont matter because religious people by default are a pretty stubborn bunch, and since its pretty much impossible to instil a love for the quest for knowledge and reason before the love of unquestionable belief, it will stay right where it is creating a ever widening divide between them and the rest of us.
The_Raven on 10/4/2008 at 18:50
Quote:
For the record, I would concider buddism to be one of the more compatable religions, like catbarf said, its really more of a philosophy.
I'm not catbarf.
frozenman on 10/4/2008 at 19:57
Quote Posted by Ben Gunn
Out of curiosity, is there anyone else here who thinks that art is science? :erg:
In many ways the artistic process and scientific exploration share many things in common. Generally they both start with a) a fit of inspiration, an insight, a question (a physicist reading a journal article sees a connection that appears lucritive or exciting/an artist receives a flash of inspiration) or b) a refinement or enhancement of existing works (a musician is inspired by certain works, wants to improve upon it/ a scientist wants to see deeper into a given system based on previously conducted experiments). They then proceed to acheive the desired results using the tools available to them, throwing out what doesn't work, cleaning it up. etc.
catbarf on 10/4/2008 at 20:30
Quote Posted by d0om
I don't remember the line in the bible "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... unless the accused is gay, then its a free for all."
Leviticus 20:13 KJV
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
'God of the gaps' is not a religion though. As I've pointed out, creation accounts for only a small part of Judeo-Christianity while other religions like Buddhism don't believe in a creator period. And while there may be people who twist the creation stories of Christianity to suit their own agendas, calling for the summary dismissal of
all religion based on that is like calling for the dismissal of
all of physics because someone used its principles to create an atom bomb.
Just as Einstein didn't intend for Hiroshima to be vaporized because of work he contributed to, war and silly ID'ers are
not the logical end results of Christ's message but merely an unfortunate side effect.
Einstein didn't publish with his works guides saying that you should use his advances to kill people in new and exciting ways. The Bible contains multiple passages that directly encourage these wars, they are not an 'unfortunate side effect'.
And do you think that 'God of the gaps' is not an extremely significant part of religion? Where do you go when you die? Why are we here? How were we created, how was the Earth created? What created the universe? Etc.
BEAR on 10/4/2008 at 20:32
Quote Posted by The_Raven
I'm not catbarf.
Fixed. YOU'RE MOVE CATBARF.
Ben Gunn on 10/4/2008 at 20:55
Quote Posted by frozenman
In many ways the artistic process and scientific exploration share many things in common. Generally they both start with a) a fit of inspiration, an insight, a question (a physicist reading a journal article sees a connection that appears lucritive or exciting/an artist receives a flash of inspiration) or b) a refinement or enhancement of existing works (a musician is inspired by certain works, wants to improve upon it/ a scientist wants to see deeper into a given system based on previously conducted experiments). They then proceed to acheive the desired results using the tools available to them, throwing out what doesn't work, cleaning it up. etc.
Sure scientists have inspiriations, gut feelings and intuitions in their working process but if they are going to publish their work they better not state there "oh, this and that are axiomes- I dont have to prove them cos I have a gut feeling that this is so- I had an inspiration."
No, they will have to exercise their analitical prowess or no one will take them seriously.
A process of refinement is present at both art and science but on the long run, from an historical point of view, you can clearly see that science progress in an accumulative way- old theories are abandoned or incorporated into newer ones- science is gradually becoming better and better. You cant say that about art- there is no point in thinking that Radiohead is a better, more refined Pink Floyd (well, you can think it but you cant prove it) or that Kandinsky's art is superior to Michelangelo's.
Their goals are completly different- science has set out to explore the objective world, and art... well, different artists have different goals. They can decide to be "objective" as much as they can (i.e. Impressionists) or to explore the emotional subjective world of their own psyche (Expressionism) or to make a political decleration (Realists) etc. etc.
Ben Gunn on 10/4/2008 at 21:18
Quote Posted by catbarf
And do you think that 'God of the gaps' is not an extremely significant part of religion? Where do you go when you die? Why are we here? How were we created, how was the Earth created? What created the universe? Etc.
I cant speak for Christianity but in Judaism the believers dont really need the god of the gaps. A jewish believer (well a proper one, few are) does not have any claim toward god- god owes him nothing while he owes to god everything. God does not owe him any explanation whatsoever about the way he created the world and if the bible holds some creation myths- well duh, maybe god spoke in allegories, maybe he wanted you to create science and explore it yourself, it's not for you to fathom his way of thinking- he owes you nothing. He doesnt even have to reward you for your good deeds- not in this life and not in the next.
The life of the jewish believer, therefore, is consisted from demands and more demands (hundreds if not thousands, but only ten are the most important)- what you should do, what you shouldnt do- in your relations with other people and in the way you relate to god.
catbarf on 10/4/2008 at 21:25
Quote Posted by Ben Gunn
The life of the jewish believer, therefore, is consisted from demands and more demands (hundreds if not thousands, but only ten are the most important)- what you should do, what you shouldnt do- in your relations with other people and in the way you relate to god.
While you may be correct about the 'God of the gaps' there is then the matter of all the people you are required to summarily execute, and I cannot say I condone that either.
Ben Gunn on 10/4/2008 at 21:29
Quote Posted by catbarf
While you may be correct about the 'God of the gaps' there is then the matter of all the people you are required to summarily execute, and I cannot say I condone that either.
What?? Please explain.
