Thirith on 7/4/2008 at 17:42
Ugh, this is so frustrating... Jay pettitt, do you realise that you're just making assertion after assertion, yet you're in no way providing evidence for your assertions? What makes it frustrating is that you don't display the arrogance and condescending attitude of several others in this thread, you actually seem to be interested in having a conversation, yet you're just saying "This is how it is" again and again without backing it up with anything other than your own world view. It's rather ironic if atheists and materialists do so in their criticism of religious people - who likewise assert without much backing them up other than their ideology.
jay pettitt on 7/4/2008 at 18:21
That'd be the cursory nature of internet forums (also the cursory nature of my understanding of life, the universe and everything) and also that I am describing my own world view. If there's a specific thing you want me to expand on I'll do me best.
Thirith on 7/4/2008 at 18:35
Okay, thanks. To begin with: how do you make the step from Darwin and evolution to "everything can be understood by studying the physical universe" (which, in effect, would seem to me to be materialism - there is nothing, there can be nothing, apart from the physical universe). This strikes me as something of a logical jump.
BEAR on 7/4/2008 at 19:08
Evolution and "everything can be understood by studying the physical universe" are similar in that the observation of nature lead to the theory of evolution.
Also, it depends on what your definition of "physical" is. I would claim there is no such thing as a non-physical world. It is all physical in some way, even our thoughts. Our definition of physicallity starts to run into problems on the quantum scale, but everything exists on the physical level.
Ben Gunn on 7/4/2008 at 20:06
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Science is perfectly apt at finding answers to why and what for questions. What makes you think it isn't?
Ok than, give me a scientific answer to this question- who are you? And I dont want to hear your'e a homo sapiens- I want a clear scientific definition for the essence of you, you alone and not anyone else.
And while at it I want you to equipe me with some sound scientifical methods that will aid me in determining why band x sucks while their peers are absolutly fabulous. Why this actor is fake and pompous and the other is a god.
jay pettitt on 7/4/2008 at 20:11
Quote Posted by Bear
Evolution and "everything can be understood by studying the physical universe" are similar in that the observation of nature lead to the theory of evolution.
Also, it depends on what your definition of "physical" is. I would claim there is no such thing as a non-physical world. It is all physical in some way, even our thoughts. Our definition of physicallity starts to run into problems on the quantum scale, but everything exists on the physical level.
Pretty much. What leap of logic do you use to imagine that there might be pertinent answers from outside the physical universe?
Partly it's also a historical thing. Once upon a time certain questions were accepted as outside the realm of science. There was no expectation that the scientific method would be able to investigate and describe the process that leads to the creation of species for example (and certainly without framing it in religious terms), until, of course, Darwin shattered that particular view point. Suddenly science was not only capable of answering extraordinary questions and framing them entirely in the natural world, but had been shown doing it with singular clarity and solidity.
You mentioned earlier that you'd be surprised if science could unravel the mind and explain for example why we were effected by works of art. Until very recently I thought much the same. The thing is, I'm not sure why. Imagine how surprised people were when Darwin published the Origin of Species? Partly perhaps it is because there is a popular scepticism of science (and brain science especially) - it's the stuff of Frankenstein and deranged, but brilliant egos. Scientists are those people recklessly pushing untested technologies on us before they are properly understood or ready; the truth of course couldn't be more different - the work of science is repetitive, sedate and unglamorous. But what are the boundaries that would prevent us from unpicking the brain? I'm not saying we're anywhere close ( it's probably more subjective effect's thing), but I can't actually think of a reason why we shouldn't be able to do it other than it would seem to be quite hard and a bit weird.
Jason Moyer on 7/4/2008 at 20:19
I don't understand how theist evolution hasn't become more popular. Pretty much every minister I knew when I was still a Christian in the early 90's had adopted a personal stance very similar to that, so it's kinda weird to me that people still have the god vs. evolution debate when there doesn't seem to be any logical reason to think that one cancels out the other. How hard is it to fit a friggen "god created the earth in 7 time periods" myth into evolutionary theory.
catbarf on 7/4/2008 at 21:04
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I don't understand how theist evolution hasn't become more popular. Pretty much every minister I knew when I was still a Christian in the early 90's had adopted a personal stance very similar to that, so it's kinda weird to me that people still have the god vs. evolution debate when there doesn't seem to be any logical reason to think that one cancels out the other. How hard is it to fit a friggen "god created the earth in 7 time periods" myth into evolutionary theory.
It's mostly the 'ZOMG THE BIBLE COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE WRONG' factor.
Jason Moyer on 7/4/2008 at 22:24
Man, that sort of thing pisses me off. Yeah, I'm an atheist, but I also have a strong religious background that shaped my personal morals and ethics, and I find it highly ironic that in this situation the atheist is behaving in a manner more becoming of a follower of Jesus. I suppose this sort of moral hypocrisy is documented enough that there's no point in elaborating further. I feel bad for Christians who aren't assholes, because the people who seem to think they're your collective voice aren't doing you any justice.
