hopper on 18/2/2014 at 13:54

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To me, at least, "basically a corridor design and not many alternative routes" is a pretty good working definition of "linear". What I'm arguing is not that linearity isn't an issue, just that in Thief, there are more opportunities to divert the player than avoiding "linearity" at all costs. I can live with "linearity", LotP-style, as long as the journey is filled with interesting things to do and explore. Adding optional routes is even better, but not in and of itself a warranty that the mission will be fun to play. Like you said about "Trace the Courier", sure you can explore the whole level afterwards, but if the only reason to do it is "because you can", it gets old fast. Or to take another example, Sabotage at Soulforge has very non-linear gameplay, but it's a drag. Playing it feels like doing chores. So you can screw up non-linear gameplay just as you can make (semi-) linear gameplay entertaining. And that's where I get back to the reception of NuThief footage that we've seen. You think the level seems too small? Like I said, with only 21% of the loot found after a run-through of 17 minutes (you could probably run through LotP in less than that) to me seems indicative that there's a whole lot more to explore in that mission, and that it can keep you occupied for quite some time. A better measure of a good mission than "how big is the map?" is, I think, "how much fun stuff is there to do?" Remember, we've had fan mission confined to 64x64x64 units which were a blast to play. Actually, no-one should know that better than bukary, the drawer of that map, because he was the winner of the 64-cubed contest with "Old comrades, old debts", which I hereby recommend ;).

hopper on 18/2/2014 at 14:21

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Someone mentioned in one of these threads recently that you could steal Bafford's scepter within 45 seconds. Now, I've never seen anyone do it, so I don't know if it's literally true, but you can get through it pretty damn fast, if you know how. So, is this a fair measure of whether Thief - TDP is a good game?

bukary on 18/2/2014 at 14:45

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Thank you. :)

But...

I still think that this level (Lockdown) is much too linear.

The only possible different route to the clocktower could be drawn between the area of the second and third cutscene (question marks on my map). But I highly doubt that it is the case, because:
x) jumping from the jeweller's window is the-point-of-no-return (it seems that jeweller's building is not "optional" to traverse);
y) the player would miss the conversation between the guards and the woman (Blackfurrow area) that can only be seen "properly" from the perspective presented in the video.

And it is soooo easy to make Lockdown level design more interesting. See my (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143219&page=3&p=2234789&viewfull=1#post2234789) other post.

I agree that "how much fun stuff is there to do?" is more important than "how big is the map?". But even in my tiny mission (OCOD) I tried to allow the player to traverse the ruined chapel building and its area in many different ways. That's why I placed there a basin, a well, a gate, a hatch, a stairs etc. It made the level more interesting, replayable and... much longer. Unfortunately, such level design is - in my opinion - completely different from what I could see in the video (notice the shameless tunnel in the last 1/3 of the mission). I have absolutely no idea why EM decided not to make this map more interesting and fun to play. Frankly, this level looks rather... boring. Even TDS city was less linear.

The other problem is the fact that this area seems to be divided into 3 loading zones: the areas before and after the corridor with some crates and the area after jeweller's building (why on earth would they make it a point-of-no-return otherwise?). And this part of the city is rather small and there's not much going on there. That is a very bad sign. Something seems wrong here.

I hope I am just mumbling and... EM devs changed their mind about the lack of water in Thief and placed hundreds of miles of underground canals (and different routes for Garrett) in this area. :p

GodzillaX8 on 18/2/2014 at 20:35

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Keep in mind it's also the first post-tutorial mission, and they may lead you into harder missions later on. Plus, you won't have access to certain tools until later anyway.

GodzillaX8 on 18/2/2014 at 21:07

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Hi, welcome to 2014. Games are a little bit different now than they were 10+ years ago.

They tend to ease you into the difficulty because they don't want to frighten off players that aren't ultra hardcore.

Glad we could clear that up.