Ko0K on 25/5/2007 at 21:18
Might want to go ahead and finish what you started. I went out on a limb and made my assertions. What are yours?
(edit) As it is, I am not sure if you are implying that the tax does not apply toward what I stated or if you are disagreeing that the oil companies and lobby-friendly politicians are getting rich off of what the rest of us pay at the pump.
Aerothorn on 25/5/2007 at 22:39
Quote Posted by fett
I'm not an economics major, but yeah it pisses me off. If the cost rose proportionately with other everyday items such as groceries, utility bills, etc. I'd write it off to cost of living. When it jumps $1 in 3 months time (meaning a previously $28 tank of gas suddenly costs $42), it's a shock to people living on a tight budget. I have no idea all the factors that contribute to the sudden increase, but it's hard not to feel like someone somewhere is either getting filthy rich from it, or really fucked something up big time. Either way, I think part of the indignation also comes from the insanely high income tax we pay (as if that's even really related??) - which makes us feel entitled to protection from high/fast increases in things that affect our daily living.
There's no basis for any of this in economic fact or theory probably. I'm just a dumb guy with a Chevy Tracker that I have to sell children into slavery to fill up anymore.
But again, the income tax we pay is less than in said European countries with much more expensive gas.
Also, if I may ask, why did you buy a Chevy Tracker? Consumer Reports notes:
"This small and uncomfortable SUV is built by Suzuki, with pre-'99 models using parts from the Suzuki Sidekick. The four-cylinder engine provided just adequate power in our tests, and the ride was punishing."
It won't tell me the mileage on it, not that it matters, as they used the screwed-up hyper-inflated EPA numbers back then.
Man, I can't WAIT till the "real" EPA number become the listed ones. I can't believe it took them so many years to do that, and continue releasing false numbers just to please the car lobbyists.
Sorry, so off-topic.
TBE on 25/5/2007 at 23:09
Quote Posted by SD
Let's just clarify from the start; when you say gas, you're actually talking about a liquid, right? :)
......In Europe, petrol taxes are begrudgingly accepted......
Let's just clarify from the start; when you say petrol, you're actually talking about refined petroleum? :)
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline) Wikipedia describes gasoline.
hopper on 25/5/2007 at 23:29
Quote Posted by Ko0K
As it is, I am not sure if you are implying that the tax does not apply toward what I stated or if you are disagreeing that the oil companies and lobby-friendly politicians are getting rich off of what the rest of us pay at the pump.
Both, to varying degrees.
Some of the taxes we pay on petrol may be dedicated to alternative energy and other "green" projects, but a much larger part goes to infrastructure construction and maintenance (some of which, like roads, makes good sense), or are simply used for general purposes. In most of Europe, at least, you can always use the argument that more taxes on petrol are a good thing, because they also serve to curb fuel consumption, which is good for the environment, right? Can't argue against doing well to the environment. Except that demand for fuel is terribly un-elastic, in the short term at least. Which is to say that if prices rise sharply, demand does not plunge accordingly, and vice versa. (Just ask fett how much less he used his car after the price increased by 50% within 3 months.) So that argument is dodgy at best, but people buy it, or at least grudgingly accept it.
So car owners have become cash-cows for the governments in Europe, to a larger degree than in the USA because a) voters there are much more tax-averse generally, b) environmental (if somewhat phony) arguments don't count as much there, and c) you do have a different geography, after all.
As for the oil price: Oil is easily the most important commodity in the world, and the most politicized. Oil is the one thing that everything else in our economy depends on. As it happens, most of the world's oil is consumed by Western or westernised industrial countries while at the same time most of it is sold by countries that have few other valuable exports, and are also politically volatile. So many of these countries joined OPEC for more bargaining power, only they can never agree on how much they think a barrel of oil should cost, because there's always too much politics involved. Some of the biggest oil exporters aren't members either, so OPEC can't freely dictate the oil prices, anyway. In recent years, China has been increasing its demand for oil vastly, so everyone is extracting on max capacity now and they still can't satisfy the worldwide demand. Iraq is in a complete chaos, Iran is being threatend with embargo, Nigeria is troubled by political unrest directly related to the distribution of oil revenues, etc.
In short, the markets are jittery as hell. The oil price has been fluctuating for decades, petrol prices have been swinging accordingly, and the oil companies have been making money anyway. Only they'd prefer it if the price would remain predictable and stable on a high level. Of course they're making more money than you can shake a stick at, and everyone in the business are riding the gravy train. But when you're saying they're "getting rich off the rest of the nation" you seem to imply a degree of sinister manipulation and control which isn't there.
Pyrian on 26/5/2007 at 00:50
Quote Posted by fett
...it's hard not to feel like someone somewhere is either getting filthy rich from it, or really fucked something up big time.
How about both? In the U.S. there's a shortage of refining capacity, and because of that the oil companies are getting filthy rich. This is not exactly inspiring them to build more refining capacity. In short, it's a classic Trust monopoly situation, just without the actual Trust. If the oil companies were actually competitors, they'd leap at the chance to gain market share.
Quote Posted by Gestalt
Public transport is generally pretty terrible in the States, from what I've heard.
It's true. It takes me ten minutes to drive to work if I schedule to avoid rush hour (which I do as often as possible). On public transportation, if nothing is late (hah), it would take me over an hour, including switching from a bus to a train and then walking a fair bit.
Thief13x on 26/5/2007 at 01:11
is it just me or are gas prices going up proportionally to the media's concern over global warming? You know that's one of the theories for the cause of oil-refineries operating at half capacity? makes sense to me.
I think people over here are actually hit harder by the increasing gas prices than in europe because of how popular giant vehicles are in America. Of course you're going to complain if it costs 70 bucks to fill up your tank when it only cost 60 two weeks ago. Site me if I'm wrong, but arn't vehicles that get 10-15 mpg more of a novelty in most other countries?
I can't believe how many individuals I see cruising around in Escalades, Avalanches, Expeditions, Silverados, etc. People can complain all they want on the nightly news but the bottom line is that it's going to take some sort of sacrafice on the consumer's part before the problems is really solved, whether it's buying a smaller vehicle or paying more for a larger more fuel efficient one, or just sucking it up and paying 100 bucks to fill up the tank.
SD on 26/5/2007 at 01:12
Quote Posted by Taffer_Boy_Elvis
Let's just clarify from the start; when you say petrol, you're actually talking about refined petroleum? :)
What else would I be talking about :confused:
Aerothorn on 26/5/2007 at 01:31
Unrefined petroleum.
Seriously dude, stop pretending to be a dumbass. You know what I mean. While you may want the english-speaking world to use the same terms for things, it's not gonna happen, so live with it.
And for once, I'm with Thief13x (at least on his latter point). While I generally try to empathize/sympathize with people, there's only so much concern to go around, and on my zero-sympathy list are owners of gas-guzzling SUVs who complain that it costs a lot to fill up a tank. Maybe they should have thought of that before they plunked down $40,000 to get a shitty "truck".
SD on 26/5/2007 at 01:54
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
Unrefined petroleum.
Nobody, but nobody, calls unrefined petroleum "petrol". TBE was trying to be snarky and failing dismally.
Quote:
Seriously dude, stop pretending to be a dumbass. You know what I mean. While you may want the english-speaking world to use the same terms for things, it's not gonna happen, so live with it.
Oh for fuck's sake. I was just getting the term "gas" clarified. At first I thought this was going to be about
gas prices (ie natural gas) because the price of that stuff has been up and down like billyo over the past 18 months, and it was impossible to say for certain which of the two you were talking about. Please consider using the term "gasoline" next time for those of us in the English-speaking world who know what states of matter are.
TBE on 26/5/2007 at 01:55
Exactly.
When one of you blokes from across the pond say things like petrol, we get it and don't bother asking for clarification.
When you ask the mechanic to look under the bonnet for a nigger in a woodpile, you may confuse the hell out of most Americans, but jesus christ dude, common terms for things, we get it. Apparently you don't get it when an American says gas, he's talking about gasoline, unless you hear him talking about chemistry or something.
