Renault on 12/4/2013 at 16:36

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Interesting note about that - when reading the original games manuals recently, there was mention in there that you were less visible when you were against a wall, even though there's no actual command or keystroke for a wall hug. Of course TDS had it, but I didn't realize a passive version of this was implemented in T1/T2.

But if we really need a key, we could move the map/objectives/journal to a sub-screen, accessed by Dpad right, and make Dpad left wall hug.



I would think this will be automatic for new Thief.

Renault on 12/4/2013 at 16:58

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I don't know what the PS4 pad will have, I'm basing this on my PS3 one. But it has 2 shoulder buttons, 2 trigger buttons, and then if you push in/click the joysticks, that's another input (R3/L3).

This is just for fun, I don't know how EM will set it up, but I'm sure they'll need a button for FOCUS and SWOOP too.

Tomi on 12/4/2013 at 17:58

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You make that sound really simple. How many of us would really like to have a new version of TDP or TMA though? A new TDP/TMA that brings nothing truly new on the table? At first it may sound like a great idea, but when I put some more thought on it, it doesn't sound all that great after all. How many people would actually buy such a game anyway?

First of all, I would be really disappointed with the enemy AI. I suppose that it still holds out reasonably well compared to many other games out there, but at least I expect something a bit more advanced from the new Thief. It doesn't have to be almost human-like realism as that probably wouldn't be too fun either, but I don't want to see any more guards who shake their fists at you and can't attack you just because you're standing on a kitchen table. It'd be nice to have some less predictable AI too, that would truly make the game a lot more challenging. Of course, changing the AI would already change the whole game dramatically, so that alone would rule out a "new TDP or TMA".

As for the controls, the old Thief games were pretty good in that respect, but again, certainly not flawless. And since the new Thief will be coming out on consoles whether we like that or not, they'll have to make some changes anyway. I never found the controls particularly difficult to learn, to be honest, but then again I had been playing games for many years before TDP was released. My sister, however, who did have a little gaming experience (just not much FPS kind of games) found the controls pretty hard and although she likes the game (she even made two FMs!), she has never really enjoyed playing the game that much. So making the controls a bit more intuitive and a bit easier to learn isn't necessarily "dumbing down", it's just making the game more accessible for those non-hardcore players (not the same as "those stupid console kids"). And there were things that were occasionally quite frustrating in old Thief anyway, mantling and climbing for example. Of course the devs could take this "dumbing down" a bit too far, but that remains to be seen.

Fighting mechanics... duh... at least when it comes to melee combat, it's just not very fun and not very challenging. And besides, it looks quite stupid in the game. Yeah, Thief is supposed to be about stealth and Garrett is not a fighter (etc etc), but then why did they give Garrett a sword (and a nice bunch of other killing devices) in the first place? For those moments when Garrett gets caught and has to fight? Yeah, but why does my right hand automatically reach for the quickload key (it can't be only me!) as soon as that happens? I think it'd be approximately 156.4 times more fun if they improved the melee combat system so that you wouldn't have to load your game every time. Stealth should still be the main thing in Thief 4 too, of course, but sooner or later even the most experienced players will get caught by the guards, and I think it would be an awesome improvement if quickloading wasn't the most tempting option to resolve those situations.

Lore-wise, I've never been a big fan of the mech battle robots (or most of the other hi-tech stuff - I don't mind a little bit of "steampunk" though), the space creatures from another dimension, or even the undead, so for me EM's decision to "tone down" these elements in the game could be a blessing in disguise.

The best thing that EM can do - and this is just my opinion obviously (I felt it necessary to point that out for some reason) - is to take some of the best parts of the old Thief (and why not some other games too) and mix them up with their own new ideas and visions. Looking Glass Studios exists no more, so how could they even make a similar game? I still want more Thief though, so I'm happy that EM are at least taking this challenge seriously. Someone here talked about Thief and computer games in general being art (and I agree with that, by the way), so why would EM want to copy everything from LGS anyway? I'm looking forward to seeing their own take on Thief.

Beleg Cúthalion on 12/4/2013 at 18:09

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Apparently Tomi ninja-beat me to writing the same stuff, but hopefully I can counter it with a slightly more distant point of view:I think here we have an example of what might be...inadequate in people's thinking about the old and the new game(s) - don't know if that is also the issue with your opinion, but I'll take it as a starting point:

Isn't it possible that these people assume that literally every detail in the old games made them so special? Don't get me wrong, the influence of little details can be significant and often the player consciously notices them, but I've come to think that what LGS did was getting many things right and the others simply didn't hurt or distract too much. What happens with the fans now is that they compare all the differences in detail between the games and suddenly come up with stories - ranging between solid and far-fetched or even ridiculous - explaining why these details have to remain exactly the way they are, even if they were actually not much of a deal in the first place. I'm not talking about big stuff, but I've seen people complain about the lock-picking minigame in TDS because it was worse than in the first games. Now we have people who think complicated keybinds are even better than simple intuitive ones because it somehow encourages immersion (the funny thing is, the only double bind I can recall from T1/2, for frobbing things and using items from the inventory, drove me nuts when during a frobbing spree I would suddenly throw a flashbomb simply because I clicked when no item was highlighted).

IMHO the developers do the right thing when they sit down and think about what Thief is really made of and how this can be achieved with the modern technology. What would a 1:1 port with "sweet graphics" do? It would be something like the Dark Mod, a diligent piece of copy work that merely works for people who have been accustomed to all the circumstances and don't question their respective value, and finally believe that it really has to be exactly this way. If the Focus thing highlights interactive objects, then it does the thinking and searching job for you, indeed something that contradicts the old gameplay. But when the keybinds work more with intuition? When the sword is replaced by a hand-to-hand combat (and stun option)? Is that really detracting from the idea of playing a Thief? Can everyone here be certain that (s)he differentiates between elements important for "da frenchize" and elements (s)he just got used to? Hell, almost everyone had to adapt to T1, why would it be blasphemous to adapt to a Thief game from 2014?

Vivian on 12/4/2013 at 18:30

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Yeah man, TDM is very much a development of the same kind of thinking rather than a 1:1 remap. It's also badass, and one of the main reasons I find everyone's bitching about perceived deviations in the new Thief so annoying. Make a TDM mission pack if you're so aggrieved, jeez.