**EM in interview : 'It's easy to fall into the trap of trying to please everyone - by bjc_sp
Weasel on 12/4/2013 at 13:04
Quote Posted by Vivian
Elephant in the room is that TDP has an entirely separate goddamn key for run forwards, which is the still the stupidest control decision I've ever come across.
I liked the fact that there was a separate key once I got used to it, and I'll be a little bit sad if the new game doesn't have the option.
Quote Posted by SuicideMachine
Maybe... focus is such an important part of the game that playing without it becomes almost impossible:erg:
From what I've read, it seems that focus is tied to the story somehow, in the way that it allows Garrett to see secret things. The fact that they're debating the option to disable focus at least means they're listening to us.
TriangleTooth on 12/4/2013 at 13:17
I agree thief 1 had very awkward controls, but Thief 2 did fix a lot of that
I mean things like separate buttons for walk/run but not for creep made wasd hard to use. I used to use qaz but then I couldn't strafe, so I gave up and used wasd with w as run and used the speed toggle button to walk. Never could creep, but crouch-walk worked awkwardly enough if you moved so slowly Garrett never actually put his foot down.
Thief 2 was pretty nice. I don't understand how 1234 is a problem at all, I've used it forever, it's the most convenient place to put weapons. I put the inventory on my mousewheel.
So all I used was wasd, shift, x, control, q+e and 123456789.
ASHASSIN on 12/4/2013 at 13:39
Jeez.... Thief 1 wasn't the most intuitive control scheme in the world, but come on! It was hardly rocket science. Besides, i have always found that the more effort you put into something, the more rewarding the outcome.
The truth is that in order to sell the most copies these days, you gotta simplify the controls so that anyone can 'pick-up-and-play' the damn game.
Esme on 12/4/2013 at 14:04
I have to say I never found the original control system to be obtuse, if anything it was incredibly flexible
I remapped every key to the numeric keypad, can I do that with a gamepad ?
So one hand on keypad, other on mouse, I never had to look away from the screen to figure out which button to press.
It all helped with the immersion as I didn't think about controlling a puppet with combinations of triangle, square, square, circle and the puppet mantles, I thought about moving in the world I could see where there's a ledge and I mantle it without thinking about it.
Yes even to the extent of leaning forwards and sideways in my chair to help see round corners and over ledges, I was that sad.
It's like riding my motorbike, I don't think about the mechanics when I ride, I think I want to be 'there' and I go 'there', but when I first got on it I had to learn what the controls did and there were a few painful lessons along the way, I didn't just expect to pick it up and be an instant master because a bike designer tried to make it simple to ride.
That's the sort of experience I want when I play, and if I can't get it with modern games I'll go play older games where I can and the industry can do without my money.
Renault on 12/4/2013 at 15:21
This at least looks a little promising - from the Strategy Informer interview with Stephane Roy:
Quote:
“No doubt on our side the PC version is extremely important,” Roy said. “Just playing Thief with a keyboard and mouse it's different so we must make sure we support that well. For making the PC version we think like a PC gamer, for consoles it's a different type of beast. It's one of our goals to make sure that the PC version isn't just a copy of the console version.”
Hard to know exactly what he means by that, but they must have something in mind. Between this and classic mode, it does seems like they're making an attempt to appeal to the diehards, when they really don't have to. It remains to be seen how effective those attempts are though.
Curunir on 12/4/2013 at 15:24
It's easy to fall into the trap of making a good Thief game, but we'll do everything we can to avert that.
How hard could it be to just hire someone to write a good story, find some dudes who are handy with the new tech and editor and just make a new Thief that plays and feels like the old one, only runs on sweet graphics? Isn't that the reason why people still play FMs? Because even eleventy freaking years after the originals were released, the core gameplay holds up well enough to be enjoyable even today, pretty much unchanged from its core settings and elements?
Queue on 12/4/2013 at 15:30
In a small way, and I hate to do so, I agree with EM's thoughts on the controls. It's not because I think the PC controls were hard to use (far from it), but that there is a perception among new gamers that they are--and it's because those younger gamers are not used to using them.
I, like many of you, grew up using keyboard controls. That's all we knew, back in the mid-to-late 80s. Hell, mouse control didn't even exist back then, and when it came about people could have easily said, "This is going to be awful...and will dumb down gaming." Remember Sierra's Manhunter and Manhunter2? Mostly, if not purely, mouse-driven. The end of gaming as we knew it, because the controls had been dumbed down drastically, right? But, as it turned out, the games were a helluva lot of fun, and that fun factor had nothing to do with the "simplification" of the control mechanism, but was more easily facilitated by the simplified controls.
So, really, I think a lot of the control issue is nothing more than a generational thing. For me, I've had an awful time trying to get used to using a console's controller. Not because it's hard to understand, it's just not what I'm used to. For all these years, I've been used to a keyboard and mouse configuration--just like before hand, I was used to keyboard only, and had to make the adjustment to implement use of the mouse. But, I made the adjustment then, and I'm getting used to the adjustment, now.
For today's gamers, those that are younger than many of us (and they are the ones who make up a huge portion of the gaming market) find that the keyboard/mouse configuration is utterly foreign and too hard to use, because they haven't been using those controls for all these years.
It's like a friend of mine, a much younger guy, who recently returned my copies of the original Hitman games, mostly unplayed. He had been going on and on about how much he loved the new Hitman:Absolution (which I hated, after having bought it for the Xbox, because it was too simplified and the controls were confusing) but hadn't played the first four games--so, of course, I loaned him my copies for the PC. He tried to play them, and hated them because the "games were too hard to play" and "the controls were too hard to learn".
On the other hand, I actually bought Duke Nukem Forever (only $5 bucks) for the Xbox...and had a great time! The game was hard as hell, even on easy, but the controls were intuitive (compared to the old keyboard-only-hell that was Duke 3D...which, after playing over and over years ago, I find I can't play anymore because--you guessed it--the controls are too convoluted) so I was able to make my way through the game, and had a good time doing so. My friend, though, hated it because the game itself is simply too hard. In fact, many of the reviews called the game "unplayable" because of it's difficulty, and warned many gamers off. I found it incredibly challenging, and rewarding to finally get through. This being the biggest difference in older/newer gamers--old gamers like a challenge, newer games want an experience.
Once again, it comes down to the whole generational thing. The biggest problem for the gaming industry is that there are still older people buying and playing games. Unlike your moms and dads who thought Benny Goodman was the high point of music and quit listening to "that crap" made after the 1950s, we continue to buy new games. But, these games are being made for this current generation--a generation that has never played games on a keyboard and mouse, don't want a huge challenge (because they wouldn't be getting their money's worth if they can't finish the game), and are used to having their hands held throughout the game. And if they don't get some sort of achievement, well then the day is ruined. We are the "bumps in the road", so to speak, as far as developers are concerned.
So in the end, I have a choice. I can continue to evolve (even though I personally see it as a devolution) with today's game play style and standards, or I can quit buying new games and just repeatedly enjoy my Benny Goodman collection of games. This is the choice to make, because developers are no longer making many games geared toward the older gamers--the market is still there, but just not big enough to go after, on a purely business stand point, for big brand titles.
I'm still making my decision....
Renault on 12/4/2013 at 16:08
Just for fun - I never played TDS on an Xbox, so i don't know how similar these are, but one possible configuration if you want to include as many of the old school controls as possible on a PS4 controller:
Left joystick – Front/back/strafe left & right
Right joystick – Mouselook
Triangle – Jump
Circle – Action (shoot/blackjack/lockpick, etc)
X - Frob
Triangle – Creep
Dpad Up – Cycle up through tools (could be arrows or lockpicks)
Dpad Right - Objectives/Journal
Dpad Down – Cycle down through tools (could be arrows or lockpicks)
Dpad Left - Map
L1 – Lean Left
R1 – Lean Right
L2 - Lean Forward
R2 – Crouch
L3 – Zoom In/Out
R3 – Put Away Item/Weapon
I'm forgetting something, I'm sure. The menu system could toggle "always run" or other similar things to that.
jay pettitt on 12/4/2013 at 16:25
Quote:
I'm forgetting something, I'm sure
...wall hug,
...3rd person / 1st person switcheroo
jay pettitt on 12/4/2013 at 16:32
Quote Posted by Curunir
It's easy to fall into the trap of making a good Thief game, but we'll do everything we can to avert that.
I'm not trying to be funny, but most of these guys are what Dia calls terrorists - people who are happier speaking French than English, or American even as I'm not entirely sure Brits don't also count as terrorists in Dia's world book. Anyway, I think it helps to cut them some slack in these interviews, 'cos it'd be a shame if we're interpreting some issues of stumbling around in a second language as being nailed down design-doc material.
