**EM in interview : 'It's easy to fall into the trap of trying to please everyone

pavlovscat on 12/4/2013 at 19:48

Quote Posted by TriangleTooth

I agree thief 1 had very awkward controls, but Thief 2 did fix a lot of that

I mean things like separate buttons for walk/run but not for creep made wasd hard to use. I used to use qaz but then I couldn't strafe, so I gave up and used wasd with w as run and used the speed toggle button to walk. Never could creep, but crouch-walk worked awkwardly enough if you moved so slowly Garrett never actually put his foot down.

Thief 2 was pretty nice. I don't understand how 1234 is a problem at all, I've used it forever, it's the most convenient place to put weapons. I put the inventory on my mousewheel.

So all I used was wasd, shift, x, control, q+e and 123456789.

I map my number pad for movement for my right hand: /=run; *=compass; 7=lean left; 8=walk; 9=lean right; 4=turn left; 5=creep; 6=turn right; 1=slide left; 2=backwards; 3=slide right; +=scroll inventory; enter=hold crouch. Page up=look up; page down=look down. Left hand is x=lean forward; c=crouch; ctrl=use ; alt=attack ; space=jump; numbers for weapons. I guess this is a throwback to when games used the 4 arrow keys for movement and spacebar for jumping.

Renault on 12/4/2013 at 19:52

Quote Posted by Renzatic

So what's with the actual, honest to God hate around here?

It's not hard to figure out. Everyone here loves the type of game Thief was. Now they see EM changing that before their eyes. No more Stephen Russell. Goofy abilities Garrett never had before like Swoop and Focus. A simplified control scheme. A binary stealth system. No more magical elements. Even sticky rafters. And this is all just in the first wave of info we're getting.

No one's giving up yet (I know I'm not). We're all still here talking. But you have to admit some things that have been mentioned so far are not looking promising. Sure, we could all sit around here and say absolutely nothing until the day the game is released, but what fun would that be? Not to mention that I think it's still early enough that EM could make changes if they see enough opposition to some of their decisions. They're definitely listening, and there's a reason they're putting all this info out now beyond just marketing. I know there was already a comment by one of the devs to the effect of "that hasn't go over that well, so we'll take a look at it." So bottom line - if fans are unhappy with what they're hearing, they should speak up. Why sit around and pretend that everything it great if it isn't?

Springheel on 12/4/2013 at 19:57

Quote:

On the surface it may look that way, but almost every system has been brought forward. We used the original games as our guide and designed TDM as if it were an evolved set of those systems.

Yes, this.

TDM Lockpicking is almost completely different from T1/2, but we found a way to make a minigame out of it without a "suck you into place" animation or huge HUD graphic. It looks and feels like T1/2, with an added skill component.

Rope-climbing looks the same, but you can now slide down or swing on ropes. Extra functionality added, nothing removed.

Mantling was made smoother, and you gain the ability to mantle onto low things, and into small spaces. A dedicated key was added to remove the "jump if you fail" problem...but you STILL have the option to use the jump key if you wish. More functionality, more options. Nothing removed.

Those are just three examples. It is possible to improve or even change something without dumbing down or reducing player control. Of course, we had the benefit of creating TDM for whatever audience we want...EM doesn't have that luxury.

Vae on 12/4/2013 at 20:05

Quote Posted by Brethren

It's the way of things. LGS was what, a couple of dozen people? EM is over 300. They can't afford to make a niche game that only appeals to the hardcore gamer, they need a huge hit that everyone can and will want to play and will sell 5-10 million copies, just so they can cover their expenses.

That's pretty much what it comes down to...yet, I believe they often go too far to appease what they perceive is actually needed to sell a game...That's part of the problem, right there. A lot of people aren't actually that stupid, they've just been coddled and conditioned to interact in a certain way...Their minds have been shaped to look at anything they touch in this regard as a casual entertainment, with a corresponding focus that only results in transient value, with little to no impact upon their growth...Yet, minds can be reshaped, if superior value is offered by those who know how to deliver it.

THIEF is about challenging the person to apply themselves using their creative intelligence, and leverages the mind to solve problems in a way that a casual game could never touch...and thus, the THIEF idea and experience has an impact on the quality of culture. Although casual entertainments have their place, it is disservice to humanity to transmute a greater cultural offering into a transient casual entertainment. By forgetting, or not being aware of that supremely important value, future culture becomes diminished rather than enhanced.

Nuth on 12/4/2013 at 20:08

I'm mad at EM because after assuring us that they know what Thief is all about, they've apparently developed something so un-Thiefy that Stephen Russell doesn't even fit into it then concocted what seem to be disingenuous excuses about why they decided to dump Russell. They have lost my trust. I'll be very happy if they prove me wrong. I may get angry, but I don't hold grudges.

Tomi on 12/4/2013 at 20:18

Quote Posted by Brethren

But you have to admit some things that have been mentioned so far are not looking promising.

I don't think that anyone's denying that. But the key words here are "some things"... not "everything". This also works the other way around - you have to admit some things that have been mentioned so far are looking promising. But when a new article or a video gets posted, it's almost always only the negatives that get picked up or quoted here. And then ripped apart and twisted into something even more terrible.

Quote:

So bottom line - if fans are unhappy with what they're hearing, they should speak up. Why sit around and pretend that everything it great if it isn't?

I haven't seen <s>m</s>any people in here pretending that everything is great. Actually, so far I'm not saying that anything is great (apart from the graphics maybe). But yes, I do agree that the fans should speak up. Of course we should, that goes without saying, and that's what the discussion forums are for. But again, why concentrate on the negative stuff only, when positive feedback can be just as helpful? I think it's important to keep some kind of a balance there - if you complain about everything possible, starting from Garrett's choice of an eyeliner, no one's going to take you seriously.

New Horizon on 12/4/2013 at 20:54

I don't hate anyone at EM, Eidos or Square Enix. I don't know them and I realize they're just working at a job at a huge corporation.

Gotta clean up my daughter, but I'll post some honest thoughts later.

Renault on 12/4/2013 at 21:06

It would be interesting to see how a true Thief type game would do if it was started up by a small indie group and funded by Kickstarter. Something exactly like The Dark mod, but in a pay version where a full game (instead of a toolset) was produced. Of course, with money changing hands, you might also end up with some Eidos lawyers knocking on your front door.

Dia on 12/4/2013 at 21:08

Quote Posted by Tomi

But again, why concentrate on the negative stuff only, when positive feedback can be just as helpful? I think it's important to keep some kind of a balance there - if you complain about everything possible, starting from Garrett's choice of an eyeliner, no one's going to take you seriously.

However, if there are many people all making the same complaints over and over again, maybe someone on the T4 dev team will get the hint. Not everything has to be couched in positive catch-phrases; I see nothing wrong with stating your opinion even if it happens to begin with, 'But I really don't like that idea ....'. If enough people say they don't like the same thing maybe the T4 devs will take the criticisms to heart and try reworking their original ideas - the ones a lot of us don't like. Continually reiterating only the positive aspects isn't going to get us anywhere; EM will just assume that they're on the right track then and continue along the same lines, which really aren't the lines that a lot of us were hoping they'd follow.

I truly liked Springheel's three examples of how aspects of a game can be improved upon without changing the basic idea of a thing. Wish there were people like our TDM devs on the T4 dev team.

skacky on 12/4/2013 at 21:33

Quote Posted by Brethren

It could still be possible to make a true spiritual successor to Thief with the exact same mechanics, etc. See War For The Overworld, which looks and feels exactly like Dungeon Keeper. They had a very successful Kickstarter (they even have Richard Ridings on board!) and EA (I think EA has the rights) never bothered them. The core mechanics remain the same, even if they obviously don't have the same lore and do not use some of the most iconic names or creatures.