bjack on 21/2/2017 at 05:11
I prefer H2. More portable. Quicker to refill, etc. What do ya’ll think? Power to density for batteries is getting better, but still sucks. Charge times for EVs are still pretty bad. Fluid electrolyte replacement is not the pipe dream that was once dreamed about. Hydrogen is the ticket in my view baby. Yeah!
So really, are there any engineers here working on either of these technologies? If so, what is your opinion. In my view it is all about who will get the powers that be to build the supporting infrastructure for one or the other. Since Musk is going “Apple” with the Tesla (in reference to his proprietary charging plug), he’s backing himself in a corner. H2 is H2. Getting it from CH4 is the norm, but there are better sources. Surplus solar electricity?
Renzatic on 21/2/2017 at 05:22
I'm betting on electric, at least in the mid-term. To put it simply, hydrogen is still pretty deep in the "yeah, it can be done" phase, while electric is already gaining traction, with cars out on the road as we speak.
Regardless of advantages and disadvantages, whichever tech gets infrastructure out on our highways first is the one that'll win.
Pyrian on 21/2/2017 at 05:29
Battery cars need to come down in price a bit.
Hydrogen cars need to solve several fundamental problems with generating and storing fuel in addition to needing to come down in price a rather more substantial amount.
I'm not convinced there will ever be a hydrogen moment. Indeed, I'm fairly convinced that the only reason anybody's pushing hydrogen at all is to try to distract attention from battery powered vehicles. As I understand it, right now, any significant amount of hydrogen is going to be produced from fossil fuels and not electrolysis, at a profit for oil companies and the detriment of the world. So, eff that.
bjack on 21/2/2017 at 05:34
Orange County, California, USA is home for a lot of high tech. We have H2 stations here (when they are on line...) and lots of compressed natural gas and other alternative fuels. Musk though seems to think we are not worthy of a super charger station, at least where the main populace exists.
I am not so sure of Renzatic's prognostication. Steam and Electrics were first before gasoline and who won that war? The most convenient and cost effective wins, unless there is outside collision.
For me, waiting 20 to 30 minutes to get 180 miles of charge is shite. I can fill up my tank in just a couple minutes and go. H2 allows a similar experience to gasoline. And you don;t have to fight with the Prius plug in weenie for your parking spot.
Renzatic on 21/2/2017 at 06:13
Quote Posted by bjack
I am not so sure of Renzatic's prognostication. Steam and Electrics were first before gasoline and who won that war? The most convenient and cost effective wins, unless there is outside collision.
Hydrogen does have some distinct advantages over electric, basically giving you all the perks of gas (quick refills, longer driving distances), while still providing all the clean energy warm fuzzies.
But that still doesn't change the fact that electric, as of right now, has a much, MUCH greater presence in the marketplace. You can pick up an electric car now for a not-too-astronomical $30-40,000. A hydrogen car? Last I checked, prices had only just dipped below the 6 figure range for what's basically a hobbyist toy.
Electric has its problems, but it's here now, ready to roll and fairly affordable. Hydrogen is only now getting off the ground. Barring some unforeseen advancements over the next few years, I don't see it becoming the favored choice here.
Vivian on 21/2/2017 at 08:19
Don't you also need a heavy and hot (like 1000c hot) catalyser for h2 cells? They sound like they might work on trucks and coaches but not cars. We have h2 cell red London buses now. It's the future.
Hesche on 21/2/2017 at 15:39
Both technologies suffer from the high discrepancy in energy density compared to a combustible fluid. I guess electricity wins. Its great advantage is its preexisting low-hazard distribution network aka power grid. The investment costs for a hydrogen distribution and storage system capable of providing the same coverage seem to eat up any advantage hydrogen might have in energy production.
The implementation of new technologies isn´t the major problem here. The biggest challenge will be the establishment of a different economic system that does not rely on constant growth associated with increasing use of natural resources. If you exclude (low energy) nuclear reactions, no renewable climate neutral energy source, how clever it may be designed, will be able to sustain an ever growing energy demand.
SD on 21/2/2017 at 16:42
Quote Posted by Pyrian
I'm not convinced there will ever be a hydrogen moment.
Transport had its hydrogen moment in the 1930s. It didn't end well.
heywood on 21/2/2017 at 18:43
I don’t think Hydrogen is going to catch on for the reasons Hesche already mentioned. We already have the industry to produce gas/petrol, diesel, propane/LNG, and electricity on a very large scale. We also have the infrastructure to deliver those energy sources to end users. Both of those things are lacking with Hydrogen.
I also think we’ll be relying mostly on petroleum-based fuels for a while. We keep decommissioning nuclear and coal plants, relying more and more on natural gas for base load power. The supply of electricity seems like it will lag behind demand and electric rates will go up. Unless the government significantly increases taxes on petroleum-based fuels, there isn’t a big cost incentive to drive sales of electric vehicles.
My wife and I are looking at new cars right now and we need a family hauler, so the new Chrysler Pacifica hybrid came to our attention. I ran the numbers and given our current electric rate and cost of gasoline, it will be cheaper to drive the vehicle on gas than plug it in. It is also more expensive than the regular gasoline model, but the $7500 tax break for buying a plug-in will make up for that difference.
I am somewhat disappointed in the lack of diesel cars in the US. I spent a lot of time in the UK from 2010-2014 and drove all sorts of rental cars, nearly all diesels. They have nice torque and good fuel economy. I especially liked the VW and Ford 2.0L diesels which are pretty sporty in a light car. I also rented a Golf with the 1.6L Bluemotion for a couple weeks and averaged about 65 MPG (imp) and had no trouble keeping up with the 90 mph traffic on the M3. That’s about 54 MPG US which is better than I can get from any hybrid under similar conditions.
faetal on 21/2/2017 at 18:50
Problem with hydrogen = it's highly explosive, so you need layered failsafes to stop cars being a bit Fallout 3.
Problem with electric = the energy still has to come from somewhere, so it doesn't solve the bigger problem, though it's a decent enough intermediate solution.
