Malf on 1/10/2016 at 22:39
Excellent stuff!
I'd also add regarding controls that:
"Control should never be completely taken away from the player."
As well as including the frustrating grab-of-the-camera in order to direct the player's attention towards something the developer doesn't want them to miss, I'd also add that charm-type effects in RPGs are cheap, nasty and frustrating when used by the opposition, and if over-relied upon, can end up driving players away from your game. Personal case in point: Pillars of Eternity. For me, it got to the stage where I felt I was gimping my party build in order to avoid them getting constantly controlled by the AI at some points.
XCOM 1 & 2 do it right, as it's not over-abused, and it creates interesting gameplay tension, disrupting the player's plans and forcing them to adapt on the fly. The enemies capable of psionically controlling your units are typically weak and easily despatched, easily located thanks to the graphical psionic trails, and predictable in their behaviour.
In PoE towards the end game, it seemed like every other encounter included multiple enemies who could quickly and effectively wrest control of your characters away from you for extended periods of time, and were incredibly difficult to kill. It's one of the reasons I just gave up on that game inches from the end.
Nameless Voice on 2/10/2016 at 00:14
While you're reading those, it's probably quite easy to work out which game I was playing / thinking of when I wrote each of them.
Charm spells tend to be annoying. I think the problem with them is that in most RPGs, you are usually a small number of unique player-controlled characters versus a large number of faceless enemies.
Charming the enemies is fine, and can be a useful strategy in a game where you are always outnumbered, but charming your characters is much, much more impactful, since it takes away a huge chunk of your party's power and you don't want to ever kill the charmed person since they are one of your important characters.
In contrast, enemies being able to charm summoned creatures is fine, since you don't really care about those as much, and instead that gives you an interesting strategic question: kill your own summoned ally because it's charmed, or instead weather its attacks because it will be useful to you again once the charm duration expires?
Volitions Advocate on 2/10/2016 at 00:15
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Huhhh. So... What's the actual
problem with it, though? I never felt too good about Deus Ex 1's ammunition system (no space, high caps per type, nevermind the hilarity of leaving you all your ammunition in jail). Ammo's
heavy, man.
or Fallout >= 3.
one thing I really liked about the hardcore mode in New Vegas (or whatever they called it) was that ammo had weight to it. Restricting my options for weapons actually made the game easier in a few ways for me. I no longer carried around every weapon in case I needed to use it. Instead I got creative with the limitations, and at the same time actually freed up a lot of inventory space. Ironic in some ways.
Volitions Advocate on 2/10/2016 at 00:19
Quote:
Controls should enable player actions rather than restrict them
One example that comes close to this Crysis, in a sort of ... lateral sense.
The devs were floored (supposedly) to see what people were doing with the suit that they never thought of in development. So when they went on to Crysis 2, instead of leaving all the potential for improvised moves, they just hardcoded those combinations into the game and made them single button presses.
Pyrian on 2/10/2016 at 01:15
I found Crysis 1's aug system hard to switch out much in practice. I think trying to make it easier to use was a good idea. Whether or not they succeeded, well, I didn't play any of the sequels...
DarkForge on 3/10/2016 at 07:37
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Huhhh. So... What's the actual
problem with it, though? I never felt too good about Deus Ex 1's ammunition system (no space, high caps per type, nevermind the hilarity of leaving you all your ammunition in jail). Ammo's
heavy, man.
I guess I just never liked the idea of my inventory space being taken up with ammo when I could've been using it for other items. On any playthrough of those games, without fail, my first Praxis points
always go into maxing out the inventory capacity just to try and soften the blow. To be fair though, MD does seem to be more forgiving with the inventory than HR was (e.g. you can stack more items now.)
Quote Posted by nicked
You know they will do your fighting for you right? That's the whole point of that section!
Yeah of course, it's just a mechanic I could've lived without. To be honest I find it a little difficult to put my finger on exactly... I know once or twice I did try playing through that section "properly" and got pretty bored watching the antlions attacking my enemies for me (and as previously mentioned, they'll usually do it regardless of whether you use the Pheropods or not, hence why I start throwing them behind me to try clearing them out for a few moments.) Obviously it's all personal taste and I get why others would like that section, I guess I would just have more fun being able to get more stuck in with the combat
myself rather than just hanging back.
faetal on 3/10/2016 at 07:41
I never had much of an issue with inventory space in DXHR, but that's mainly because I only carry stun gun and some other small bits and pieces. Most of the hurty weapons get left in my apartment where they can be modded as much as possible against the possibility that I may one day use them.
Pyrian on 3/10/2016 at 13:34
Quote Posted by DarkForge
I guess I just never liked the idea of my inventory space being taken up with ammo when I could've been using it for other items.
So basically you'd be happier without inventory limits at all.
catbarf on 3/10/2016 at 16:00
Quote Posted by faetal
Stalker worked similarly. You level up by getting access to better guns, artifacts and body armour
Tying in with this, I really dislike arbitrary breaks from reality to produce RPG mechanics without using stats. In STALKER: ShoC, the NATO guns are straight up better than Warsaw Pact guns in every way, doing 2-3 times the damage per shot in addition to being more accurate and having less recoil. Trying to stick with the Warsaw Pact guns through the whole game is an act of masochism. In contrast, in Call of Pripyat you have access to both Warsaw Pact and NATO guns early, and the difference is more personal preference- NATO guns tend to be slightly more accurate and controllable, but Warsaw Pact ammo is much easier to find. 'Leveling up' is instead represented through weapon modifications, artifacts, detectors, and other items for which it makes sense for there to be a logical progression.
But what really bothers me, replaying Call of Pripyat right now, is dissonance between a game's style/atmosphere and mechanics. In particular, the weapon mechanics in a lot of games set in the modern day bother me, with bullets going all over the place and enemies requiring dozens of rounds to take down. When the game looks and feels so close to reality, it's jarring to find that I can't hit an enemy at 100 meters with an AK, or that a guy in a trenchcoat can take three shotgun slugs through the torso and still be functional.
I actually just finished Far Cry 2 using a realism mod that makes most weapons accurate and one or two shot kills, and it was surprising how much more immersive it made the game, without being as frustrating as something like ARMA. Games like Insurgency further show that you can have a fun level of realism without making a simulator. I'd really like to see more games try to incorporate this level of realism in their gunplay, because it seems like a natural fit for the style of games like Far Cry and STALKER.
Quote Posted by Malf
XCOM 1 & 2 do it right, as it's not over-abused, and it creates interesting gameplay tension, disrupting the player's plans and forcing them to adapt on the fly. The enemies capable of psionically controlling your units are typically weak and easily despatched, easily located thanks to the graphical psionic trails, and predictable in their behaviour.
Funny story- as I recall, my XCOM 1 campaign ended with my best soldier, who I'd had the whole game, getting mind controlled by the final boss. I had another soldier shoot a rocket at said final boss, killing him and winning the game without having to shoot my own guy. Unfortunately, the death of the final boss triggers the death of all enemy units, including units under mind control. So, my guy dropped dead about a second before the ending cinematic started. You can make a Pyrrhic victory satisfying, but that was really lame.
TannisRoot on 3/10/2016 at 17:42
A goofy / humorous / animoo / cartoony art style or theme - no matter how good the mechanics are there are plenty of games I couldn't enjoy or get into because of this. Disgaea, Torchlight 2, Windwaker, even Dishonored (beat it but I still hate the art style, personal preference).
