Election Results - TTLG Forums

Fringe on 8/11/2008 at 03:57

Quote Posted by SlyFoxx

How's government done so far?

Since the New Deal, we've become one of the wealthiest nations in the world with a high standard of living--but now a middle class that's been in decline for about as long as deregulation has been a fad.

Trend's not hard to see, at least not without ideological blinders.

Quote:

Are you kidding me?

Are you kidding me? Or are you going to, you know, say something meaningful?

BEAR on 8/11/2008 at 04:18

Quote Posted by SlyFoxx

RE: bold number one. What? Are you kidding me?

RE: bold number two. How's government done so far?

It is going to take a lot of money and a lot of thinking to solve global poverty, there is no question about that. The meaning I get from "throwing money at the problem" is that money is being spent without any thought or care as to where it goes. Mishandling of funds is bound to happen, but nobody ever goes out and says "lets spend large amounts of money without thinking". Assuming thats what you wanted clarification on, since you didn't actually say anything.

As for how governments done so far: As fringe brought up, the social projects since world war two have brought millions of people out of poverty. For many, things like social security (omg socialism, its right there in the name!) is all that stands between them and living in poverty to the end of their days.

Charity existed before all these programs, and it failed to solve it. Government is supposed to be representative of the people, and in this I think they are. I think there are enough people who don't care about poverty that makes government inaction reflect the feelings of people. As such, I'm not particularly optimistic, no matter how fantastically wealthy we become, seems those with the most wealth are the most reluctant to part with any of it.

Ghostly Apparition on 8/11/2008 at 04:41

Quote Posted by demagogue

I might have voted for McCain in 2000, maybe even 1996 (I'd have to think about it more; I liked aspects of Clinton and Gore, too) ... But (and this is where I stop taking deathtoll's side) I think his time has passed, and McCain vs Obama 2008 is not McCain vs Gore 2000 or Clinton 1996. Now I'm looking at restoring the US's international image, getting a strong climate change regime set up, a better energy policy, beefing up some regulatory regimes ... And after that maybe we can swing back Republican once they're locked in. If we lose competitiveness in the meantime, 1) I don't think it will be as much as some fear (I'm not sure many people will be in a huge financing, expansion, risk-taking mood for a while anyway), but 2) in cost-benefit terms I think it would still be worth it anyway to take care of those things now, when we need them, then get back to bread and butter policies on a stronger foundation later.

Let me get this straight, now that W has completely screwed the pooch, you want the Democrats to come in and straighten out the mess. Restore our image around the world, actually do something about climate change instead of deny it exists as the Republicans have done. Reestablish the regulatory oversight that Phil Gramm revoked which resulted in this financial catastrophe and then turn things back over to the republicans once their locked in?
Is that about it? Anything else you want Democrats to do before we turn things back over to the incompetent fucktards? hahahhhahahahahahahah
You are some piece of work. That is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.

This was a landslide make no mistake. The people have spoken and with a clear voice. They are tired of the policies of failure. Of an illegitimate war,
of outsourced jobs, of lies, of lousy stewardship, of torture, of economy in total disarray. The people will also decide if and when the Republicans have proven they are worthy of our trust again. Not you. Hopefully it will be a while, to me it seems the republicans need a lot of soul searching, they are in denial right now seemingly unwilling to admit they screwed up.

Nicker on 8/11/2008 at 07:10

Indeed, reducing global poverty will take a lot of money and a lot of thinking - but I bet it would take a lot less than the military occupation of a foreign nation.

With a raised global standard of living, maybe a lot of things we keep fighting over would become a lot less contentious.

Just a consideration...

demagogue on 8/11/2008 at 08:01

Quote:

and then turn things back over to the republicans once their locked in?
Is that about it? Anything else you want Democrats to do before we turn things back over to the incompetent fucktards? hahahhhahahahahahahah
You are some piece of work. That is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.

First of all, I think you are mistaking me for a partisan kind of person that personally gives a fuck whether people from Party A or B are the dicks or the nice guys and should/n't be in office because I'll support/despise them until the end of time. Fuck their personalities and what they or their Party want. They all work for me, so I keep a wary, critical eye on all of them, whomever the masses decide to put into power for whatever arbitrary reason they pull out of their asses one arbitrary day out of 1400. (Remember McCain was ahead hardly a month ago; it would be good to keep in perspective that Obama's victory, while striking as it happened, also had a measure of luck and arbitrariness to it, with the circumstances and timing hitting just right, the "perfect storm" as one commentator put it.)

I do think that different times often call for different policies and (non-idiotic) leadership styles. Like you say, the times and the people decide when a change in leadership is called for, not any individual and their (usually narrow-minded) idea that it's time for the "dicks" to go and the "nice guys" to come in. That's the context in which I was making that point, and your last paragraph especially is making exactly that point. So I'm not sure there's really a disagreement here, or at least what it is if there is.

As for the point itself, I was speaking in pretty abstract terms. I don't have any particular desire to see any current Republican leader in power. Certainly a lot of usual suspects associated with the current administration have already disqualified themselves. But like I said, I could give fuck-all whether I'm supposed to think of them as dicks or nice guys, and who actually gets into power comes across to me as so very arbitrary anyway...

I do think ... well, I don't feel like a lecture on regime theory, but suffice to say calcification isn't really great for a political system. A number of "democratic" countries have had only one party in power their whole existence (cf: Japan), and I think they've suffered because of that. So many Japanese let so many awful policies slide by because they don't think the public is capable of putting pressure on the government and actually thinking it might respond. I've never seen people (of a developed country) so tolerant of getting walked on by their government or unregulated industry and never putting up a fight.

I would imagine that, for their own sakes, the Republican party does need to reinvent themselves, probably in a reverse-mirror image of 1994 (i.e., rethinking the "moral" angle). My guess is, also like 1994, it will happen a lot sooner than people expect now, even as soon as the next mid-terms ... Once more for the chorus, that's not something I personally wish for; I could give fuck-all personally... I more interested in which policies complement which time, and even more interested in trying to read the air to discern what's coming. And if a person were reading the air, they might discern how that reconstitution might take shape, and how the public is going to shift its political weight around. For one thing, the Republican "screwing up" is not only about losing touch of the mainstream, but in losing touch with their own bedrock principles. And there's already an embittered rising swell within the leadership on ideological grounds, in parallel with a debate on where their popular support should be coming from. It's not a debate that I have any interest in participating in, since I have no vested interested in the Rep Party, but I am interested in the direction it takes, and I'm interested in the direction that society and the economy are going in that make certain policies better or worse over time.

On that, I have no idea what things will be like 8, 12, 16, 20, 40, 80... years from now, so have absolutely no opinion about who would be better for leadership out of a group I can't even imagine. I think it's fair to say I can foresee one possible evolution over the next few decades when a reconstituted Rep Party might see its time swinging back around (at least until it needs to swing back Dem again; it's a pendulum after all) but that doesn't mean I get a hard-on thinking about a few idiots getting back into power and proceeding to out-do W in making as many awful decisions as quickly as they can. Obviously, nobody wants that.

june gloom on 8/11/2008 at 10:38

Quote Posted by demagogue

I'll remember that the next time I feel like coming to your defense. :p

Meant to reply to this earlier, forgot- I know, I know, it's just a pet peeve. Forgive my transgression. :p

Gryzemuis on 8/11/2008 at 16:57

Jezus Christ, what is happening over there in the US ?

A few days ago, people were celebrating the new age. The victory over racism. Etc, etc. But when I'm reading different forums, looking at YouTube, reading comments on non-political websites, it seems those pussy Republicans are whining like a bunch of school girls. "Omg, America is gonna die !".

I've read suggestions that the new goverment is going to put mandatory army service for everyone 18-25, for 3 months per year. Ridiculous. Here's what I found: (http://change.gov/agenda/service/) It seems voluntary. And $4k for 100 hours of work is $40/hour, which doesn't seem bad for college students. Here is a chance to do something for your country, and all those pure-blooded nationalistic patriotic Republican RealAmericans(tm) are crying like pussies. They can't even read.

Look at this dipshit.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ0roRfWjBE&feature=related)
His hobby is collecting Power Ranger toys. Wtf ? I don't like to use the word, but here the only question my liberal mind can come up with is "how gay can you get ?"
The kid is crying as if the world is coming to an end. He should grow up first, before getting concerned about socialism destroying the Great America that he single handedly built up himself over the last 2 years.

Everywhere I go on the Internet, and where people can leave comments or start threads, they cry how Obama is a socialist, a communist, a terrorist, a foreigner, a muslim, the anti-christ, blah blah blah. What a bunch of sore losers. "November 4th 2008 is the day that the big downfall started !". Excuse me, if you look at history, you will see that the US's downfall started when you elected Cheney, Rove, Bush and all the other crypto-fascists to lead you country into turmoil.

I'm sorry for all of you who voted for Obama. It seems the Republicans are very sore losers. I am suddenly starting to think that it will be a real possibility that Obama will be assassinated by some redneck retards. I've read how people want to go to court to prove that Obama wasn't born in the US, and therefor is not a citizen, and therefor will be removed from the White House. What a bunch of crok. They couldn't cheat at the elections by using the judicial system to fuck up the counting of votes. Now they will try to use the judicial system to bullshit in some other ways.

It's pathetic. The Republicans are really pathetic. I can only think that McCain must be relieved that he doesn't need to deal with the average Republican voter anymore.

Edit: more quotes:
"Somehow, Oprah got him elected".
"Obama's new volunteering program is just like the Hitler Jugend".

heywood on 8/11/2008 at 17:26

Quote Posted by dethtoll

He picked Rahm Emmanuel. On the one hand, hooray, someone who gets shit done. On the other hand the guy's a partisan tank.

He's going to be the Chief of Staff, not the Secretary of State. The rumors are that Kerry is going to State, Gates will stay on at Defense for a little while, and Summers, Volcker, or Geithner will take Treasury.

Quote Posted by Nicker

Even welfare in enlightened western democracies is often punitive and judgemental. Designed by people who have probably never known sustained poverty, mental or physical disability, discrimination. Administered by people who draw steady salaries, with health benefits, union protection on behalf of reluctant tax payers who can think of other things they'd rather spend their hard earned money on.

To some extent it has to be punitive and judgmental. Living life in the safety net has to be less comfortable than living in the mainstream otherwise people won't have an incentive to get out. Also, most of the people who have trouble getting out of the safety net or keep falling back in are not fully capable of managing their own lives. Good case workers have to act somewhat like parents, and that means being judgmental and at times punitive.

Quote:

It's taken more direct foreign investment to bring China to where it is now than we've spent on the Iraq war.

We also should be clear about how we're defining poverty. Are we talking about poverty in an absolute sense, measuring all economies against a certain minimum acceptable standard of living. Or are we talking about poverty in a relative sense, establishing the minimum standard of living separately for each economy relative to the median? Don't say both, because the approaches to solving them are different and demonstrably counter acting.

sergeantgiggles on 8/11/2008 at 17:50

Quote Posted by LittleFlower

Everywhere I go on the Internet, and where people can leave comments or start threads, they cry how Obama is a socialist, a communist, a terrorist, a foreigner, a muslim, the anti-christ, blah blah blah. What a bunch of sore losers. "November 4th 2008 is the day that the big downfall started !". Excuse me, if you look at history, you will see that the US's downfall started when you elected Cheney, Rove, Bush and all the other crypto-fascists to lead you country into turmoil.

What downfall? We're still here. We just had another peaceful transfer of executive power. Granted, if you were living in Iraq, the last few years may have been less than pleasant, but I fail to see how our executive for the past eight years has had any effect on your life whatsoever.

You and the right-wing nutcases are of the same kind.

Quote Posted by LittleFlower

but here the only question my liberal mind can come up with is "how gay can you get ?

I saw this one guy on the internet that still plays video games, even though he's like 44. How gay can you get?

paloalto90 on 8/11/2008 at 18:25

Quote:

Or if you were sent over to Iraq maybe?Like your no longer around or have one less limb.
For me as a conservative the last eight years have meant enduring a visionless president with virtually no communication skills,not promoting or applying conservative values in his spending policy and other issues.The election result is the final stake in the heart of this vampire,creating the illusion of being a conservative but not acting like one for the sake of his handlers foreign policy.