E3: Thief Community Interview

spyhopping on 6/7/2013 at 10:48

Quote Posted by Silverwolf

Spyhopping:
The moderators at EM have zero credibility with me. I don't care if they played for one hour instead of the half an hour the journalists played. They still played through the outdoor section; the burning building; burning bridge, etc. They reported on things they saw, both good and bad. EM themselves have said what things in other Thief games won't be in Thief 4. That is not "misinformation". Developers listening? To me they aren't listening much. Fans have posted for four freaking years about things they didn't want in the game (QTE, no third person, etc.). Almost everything they don't want is in the game. Much of what they wanted isn't there. That's the developers are listening? No

Cheers for your reply, but I don't really have much to say about this in response. I don't mind answering questions you might have, but if you don't believe what I say is credible then there's not a great deal I can do about that. I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself.

Quote:

When b1skit said people weren't being banned for having negative views about the game, he's misleading people. He's giving misinformation himself. During the first four years of the forums, quite a few people were banned temporarily or permanently if they were negative.

I see what goes on behind the scenes there, and from what I know it is certainly not the way that things are done. As unreasonable and irritating as I find certain levels of negativity on the forums I would never be supported in issuing an infraction because of that. I'd probably end up being back as a regular user again in a week.

A lot of what happens in the event of a ban will be cleaned up by the mod team, so unfortunately you won't be able to see why a particular member has been banned or temp-banned. It's quite often down to a string of problematic posts over a long period of time, which builds and builds until a straw breaks the camels back.

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Reputable reviewers have described what they liked and disliked. I will trust them any day over EM moderators and Ashpolt.

With b1skit saying most of the info here is from misinformation, he is wrong. We have heard from other reviewers and EM themselves. There are quite a few things we don't like. That is not "misinformation". Over the years I have seen companies put down those who aren't happy and discredit them. It seems to me that EM is now going to do it. Instead of me being on the fence about buying the game (when it reaches the bargain bin), EM has lost a sale. Some people I know that were "on the fence" are now saying "no sale".

Alright, tell me why Ashpolt's opinion is nothing compared to a reputable reviewer? I understand why you think all of the mods are biased, even if I disagree with your reasoning, but you aren't telling me why you believe Ashpolt's opinion is untrustworthy.

I don't think every negative opinion is down to misinformation, but it sure does contribute. A fair proportion of negativity is down to people seeing three pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle and assuming they can precisely predict what the rest of it looks like. I mean, I've played the bloody game, and I'm still keeping an open mind because I've only seen a tiny portion of the whole. I think that is the most profitable way to approach things.

jtbalogh on 6/7/2013 at 11:05

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1) empty zombie hands: thief DNA is also about the option for a minimilist HUD in the config files. A zombie hand anchored to the screen is a hud, though more graphical with extremely large real estate. A configurable hud in section [HandCycleWindow] for hands and NormalPos_X=, NormalPos_Y=, for the resting position of an empty zombie hand that slides away. Similar to other categories in the configuration file that might exist. Something like that maybe?

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2) empty zombie hands: the survey was for a short and intense 30 minute game? The thief DNA is actually a more patient waiting game in the shadows with plenty of time to see a much smaller graphic representing the crouch position. If a focus group or journalist had only 30 minutes, that procludes them way too busy with all the other amazing features to consider an empty zombie hand in a survey. Those other amazing features are brainteasers to occupy their thoughts long after beta testing, and an empty zombie hand is a forgotten afterthought. It is unfair to extrapolate the survey to a player or developer like me who will stare much longer for days on end mastering the features and see empty zombie hands become less realistic and hog more screen real estate than needed.

b1skit mentions a survey about a short and intense 30 minute game but limited time for patience?

Quote Posted by b1skit

"I'm always acutely aware of the HUD and a billion other things that I normally don't focus on when I'm playing myself. When the controller is in my hand, I'm usually so focused into the screen that I have to physically tear my eyes away from the center to find the UI or what not in the corners. I think the same thing applies when we're talking about Garrett's hands - when you're actually playing the game you barely notice them"

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3) empty zombie hands: there was enthusiasm about what hands do when touching? I agree that "the painting moment" will be good to see when touching something and the enthusiasm is refreshing. I disagree that empty zombie hands are just as accepting. Since the survey said people did not really notice or care, then the same conclusion could be true when hiding empty zombie hands and those same people would not really notice or care.

b1skit mentions enthusiasm about touching?

Quote Posted by b1skit

really lend a tactile feeling to the game. When he moves while his hands are touching something, you get a real feeling of weight and a shift to his movements ... one of the big "whoa" moments for the guys that got to play the game involved Garrett's hands (they called it "the painting moment")

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4) empty zombie hands: since entire levels will be designed to ghost, we might hardly ever hold anything, not even a blackjack. It could get old fast after the 4th mission for example and our empty zombie hands are still outstretched in the middle of the screen doing nothing but fidgeting around. I disagree that empty zombie hands help put Garrett in a ready position. Ready to rush and do something? Ghosting slowly across a mission does not do anything with our hands until the occasional door is pushed or item picked up.

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4) empty zombie hands: empty zombie hands outstretched can be very handy for action packed first person shooters that recharge, upgrade, pick up, etc. That does not seem to translate well to a more intelligent skinny thief moving slowly along the wall with hands sticking out to slap a passing guard (well, Benny can be slapped).

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6) empty zombie hands: will every screenshot have hands? To help, the programmers might probably make the screenshot keybind automatically remove huds in a screenshot.

b1skit warned us about the problem of watching footage over someone's shoulder and the screenshot or video of a hud becomes the footage:

Quote Posted by b1skit

"all I can say to you is that watching footage of a game and actually playing a game are 2 very different things. I find that when I'm watching somebody else playing a game, I'm always acutely aware of the HUD and a billion other things that I normally don't focus on when I'm playing myself."

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7) empty zombie hands: there are no zombies anymore? Would be nice if Garrett would not be one either for consistency.

Thanks

Springheel on 6/7/2013 at 11:26

Quote:

Oh, come on.
You shipped a bunch of moderators who were already in-the-tank for the game, and aggressively defending it on the EM forums before they'd seen minute #1 of gameplay, handed them some perks and special passes... and you want anyone at all to accept the premise that their positive impression of the game is trustworthy?

For the record, Adam wasn't linking to reveiws from the EM mods, he was linking to other positive articles. To say there are no positive articles out there would be silly. However, I'm far less likely to trust IGN and Game Informer (have they ever given a negative review?) than SneakyBastards and RPS.

Tomi on 6/7/2013 at 11:51

Quote Posted by jtbalogh

4) empty zombie hands: since entire levels will be designed to ghost, we might hardly ever hold anything, not even a blackjack.

You will still be picking up loot, opening doors, peeking around corners, climbing up and down, using some other gadgets that you might have, etc etc...

I can't say that the "zombie hands" ever bothered me too much in the gameplay videos that I've seen, in fact Garrett interacting with the environment with his hands looked pretty cool in some places, but I suppose that it could get a little frustrating if the hands are indeed visible all the time. Luckily there's still plenty of time left to tweak little things like that.

Chade on 6/7/2013 at 11:57

Quote Posted by Kurgan

And I maintain that I understood perfectly, and reported accurately, with only a minor mistake ... They're "excited by the feedback," which gives the clear impression that it's positive.

I know I keep harping on at you, but being excited by feedback does not at all imply that said feedback is positive. Perhaps that's true for some personalities, but I would much rather work for demanding and critical people then people who will just take whatever I shove at them (which is not the same thing as saying I would never get upset by said criticism!).

Quote Posted by spyhopping

How are EM ever going to be able to do this sort of thing without you calling the people they send over biased?

FWIW, I appreciate you guys dropping over here. It's a hostile environment. I don't know how much effort you're willing to put in over here, but a series of factual and balanced statements over time would help your credibility a lot, if you're willing to spend the time.

Esme on 6/7/2013 at 12:08

Zombie hands in action

[video=youtube;f-uYKAaT3kI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f-uYKAaT3kI[/video]

Tomi on 6/7/2013 at 12:11

Hehe, that's actually pretty funny. I like the new art direction... not sure about Garrett's new hat though, I think I preferred the cape.

Dia on 6/7/2013 at 12:54

Quote Posted by b1skit

I think I've learned by chatting with you guys that a lot of the issues on these forums with the game stems from misinformation and a lack of fact checking.

No. Just No. If you honestly believe that then you're even more myopic and misguided than your female buddy who was just as deluded as you seem to be. The issues on this forum started when Thief fans discovered that EM had totally screwed with the Thief saga and did the exact opposite of what they originally promised us fans they would do with the game several years ago.

Quote Posted by b1skit

Please don't assume the worst without at least checking with me or one of the community members who played the game at E3. We're here to help! It pains me to read pages of angry ranting and disappointed hand wringing when the OP has simply misunderstood or reported something untrue. If you ever spot something that doesn't sit right with you, feel free to send me a PM and ask me to weigh in.

Oh ffs. A lot of us have already tried to tell you that in regards to T4 we trust EM as far as we can throw the lot of 'em. How does disagreeing with what EM reps have said in a video interview translate to 'assuming the worst'? It's pretty much right there in the video. As far as questions regarding the actual game, I think I'll pass since you've managed to misinform on that score already. Btw; your 'We're here to help' sounds suspiciously like 'Join us. Join us NOW!'. 'Ask you to weigh in'. Right. Nothing like an unbiased, impartial opinion, is there? Or the pat answer of 'Can't tell you that now, but you'll be hearing more about it in the future'. (insert string of smilies here)

Quote Posted by b1skit

For an even better chance at a response (unfortunately I am crazy busy), I encourage you to chat with (even just PM) our(http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=138032) E3 community attendees. Talk to them. They're lovely. These guys have played the game more than ANY BODY ELSE IN THE WORLD right now - Journalists were only given 30 minutes of gameplay time due to the crazy E3 schedule, our community guys were booked for a full hour ...

Seriously? 'Our community guys'? You're asking us to contact EM COMMUNITY MEMBERS for objective, impartial and unbiased opinions about a game that's being produced by EM. Ask questions of guys who'll just say something to the effect of 'Well, we can't tell you that yet, but you'll hear more about it in the future and you're gonna LOVE it, it's gonna be GREAT'? O.M.G. Do you even have a clue?

Why weren't any TTLG members invited to play the T4 demo (TTLG members NOT affiliated with the EM forums, that is)? It's not too late, ya know, to have EM fly some of OUR (TTLG) members in to play it. At least that way we here at TTLG will get some honest, unbiased, and real answers. I nominate Vae, SubjEff, Springheel, Captain Spandex, jtr, Chade, and Renz. I'd be willing to make the trip too, but would have to bring my Newfie pup along. And my two cats.

spyhopping on 6/7/2013 at 14:18

^Wow. Um... *backs away slowly*

Quote Posted by jtbalogh

LOL

Quote Posted by Tomi

The hands are there when you're crouched, so not all the time. As I said before, when I was playing I didn't feel like they were an issue- it honestly didn't even cross my mind that they would be a problem until it was mentioned in the community. In the whole bias argument we're quite often being accused wilfully closing our eyes to things that are blindingly obvious problems in order to keep EM sweet or something. I quite simply didn't notice this problem, and I tried to have quite a critical eye when I played the game to help benefit the community, and be of use when it came to feedback. I think when I go back to the game I will be more aware of them, but that's probably about it.

If EM collect some more feedback from people who have played the game and it's recognised as an issue there, then yes, I hope that they tone them down or something, but I honestly don't think it'll be a problem that is flagged up. It feeds into awareness of Garrett's body, and him being ready to plant his hands on an object in the environment, rather than his hands plunging out of nowhere.

Quote Posted by Chade

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm happy to try to persevere and earn a bit of trust. If there's lots of unreasonable abuse I'm not going to stick around to listen to it, but I don't think that's going to be a problem. I'd like to erm... "improve relations" as much as I can.

Quote Posted by Esme

Zombie hands in action

[video=youtube;f-uYKAaT3kI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f-uYKAaT3kI[/video]

That is in some horrific place between hilarity and complete, blind terror.

Renault on 6/7/2013 at 15:53

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

You shipped a bunch of moderators who were already in-the-tank for the game, and aggressively defending it on the EM forums before they'd seen minute #1 of gameplay

I don't frequent the official boards enough to know, but - so it wasn't just that they were mods, but they were also "talking up" the game before the were picked to go play it? Well, it seems like EM stacked their own deck very nicely.

Quote Posted by Dia

I nominate Vae, SubjEff, Springheel, Captain Spandex, jtr, Chade, and Renz. I'd be willing to make the trip too

OK, reality check. Let's be honest here. You're not going to get a unbiased opinion from either Vae or jtr, they are obviously negative in the extreme. You have to admit you'd probably be included in that group too, Dia. The rest of that list would be good choices though.