Koki on 15/6/2011 at 10:02
Quote Posted by Schattentänzer
If you're claiming I couldn't understand your counter-argument, you're admitting to not being able to properly make one.
No, I'm just saying you're stupid.
Quote:
Look, stats are there as a mechanic to resolve situations where chance and skill of a character interact with the game world. Ideally, I don't have to bother with them at all because each time I minmax my THAC0 on an excel-sheet size stat screen I leave the game and do accounting.
Ideally, my actions alone would be enough to convey my intended role to the game- something that's impossible until we have sentient computers.
So we're stuck with stats (in one guise or other), but that doesn't mean I have to bother managing them. I'm playing the game on a big calculator, ffs.
And you keep proving it.
The horrible burden of having to manage your statistics means there is something to manage. Means you can change them. Which is good, because that means there's more possible combinations of statistics, which means more possible characters to make, which means more choice, which is what computer RPGs are about. Hell, even pen and paper RPGs are all about this.
I dunno, maybe RPGs are just not your thing. Tried Halo? It's pretty fun, and you don't have to manage much.
Schattentänzer on 15/6/2011 at 11:05
Quote Posted by Koki
The horrible burden of having to manage your statistics means there is something to manage. Means you can change them. Which is good, because that means there's more possible combinations of statistics, which means more possible characters to make, which means more choice, which is what computer RPGs are about. Hell, even pen and paper RPGs are all about this.
Choice, yes. Consequences, too- what good does it do to tick up on charisma or int if the game still treats you the same way as before? In p&p at least I have the option to act in a way the GM and other players can recognize as a character.
That aside, you're missing my point. Stats are still a mechanic, a tool to assist the game flow. The way most RPGs are made now, it's basically the other way around; you're playing the game so you can manage your stats.
Here, example: In p&p I may have stats for spotting an enemy or jumping or even running. Most CRPGs have done away with those because they have been replaced with other game mechanics or have been made obsolete by technology (full 3d view, physics engine, sound). The die roll for hitting an enemy with a bow shot has been replaced with- well, with just hitting it with your aim or not. What I'm advocating isn't less choice in playstyle, but substitution of the numbers with better game mechanics. What would I need a charisma stat or fast-talk perk for if the game would let me do this through conversation?
Quote:
I dunno, maybe RPGs are just not your thing. Tried Halo? It's pretty fun, and you don't have to manage much.
I dunno, maybe you enjoy looking up tables, memorizing bonus thresholds and distributing experience points. I think that's rather dull, but hey, some people like to collect stamps.
Koki on 15/6/2011 at 12:15
Quote Posted by Schattentänzer
Choice, yes. Consequences, too- what good does it do to tick up on charisma or int if the game still treats you the same way as before?
That's a given.
Quote:
Here, example: In p&p I may have stats for spotting an enemy or jumping or even running. Most CRPGs have done away with those because they have been replaced with other game mechanics or have been made obsolete by technology (full 3d view, physics engine, sound).
Yeah, and we call these games
action RPGs precisely because they allow you to substitute the character's abilities with your own.
Quote:
What I'm advocating isn't less choice in playstyle, but substitution of the numbers with better game mechanics. What would I need a charisma stat or fast-talk perk for if the game would let me do this through conversation?
But that IS less choice in playstyle. If you replace a Speech roll with a minigame, then your character's Speech skill is only as good as you at the minigame. Let's say you suck at that particular minigame - then your character will never be a good speaker. Let's say that you have 80% hit ratio with railgun in Quake 3 - then your character will always be a dead shot with a bow. Result: you can only play great sharpshooters and shit speakers.
Separation of skill between the player and the character is fundafuckingmental in a roleplaying game.
Vernon on 15/6/2011 at 12:26
Quote Posted by Schattentänzer
Most CRPGs have done away with those because they have been replaced with other game mechanics or have been made obsolete by technology (full 3d view, physics engine, sound). The die roll for hitting an enemy with a bow shot has been replaced with- well, with just hitting it with your aim or not.
I don't want to get in the way of this lover's tiff but this part of what you wrote describes what makes games into action games, not RPGs (Not even "action RPGs." Just fantasy action games). This is the reason for all the herp-derping - the fact that people are calling this an RPG, including Todd Howard himself.
If your mouse aim dictates whether you hit, you're playing an action game. If your ability to succeed in a conversation is based on what your choice is rather than what choices are available to you due to your conversation skill statistic (because somewhere in RPG code there is a variable getting fucking plus plussed when you improve in a skill) then you have removed the layer of abstraction that makes a game an RPG.
Anyway it doesn't bother me if people feel better pretending they're playing an RPG, but it is kind of like turning on autoaim in FPS games
Schattentänzer on 15/6/2011 at 13:16
I've never said that character skills should be substituted with player skills. That would be contradictionary to assuming a role- after all, the kick is in trying different shoes for a while. I believe there are options to remove the abstraction layer of plain numbers without loosing the character/player differentiation.
Plainscape Torment's handling of the Intelligence stat for example is rather elegant in that it adds conversation options in relation to your character's aptness. The (in)ability to aim with a bow has been simulated with shaking, for stamina you have a status bar etc.
Again, yes, there are stats behind those mechanics. That's how it works, because computers are machines. I just don't see the need to have them exposed to the player, the game can keep track of them for you.
And my main beef is still that with the focus on your abilities less attention is spent on your character's personality. I wish there was an interface where I could jot down my character's goals and thoughts about gameworld stuff to let the game know who he/she is and how NPCs should react. I'd love to have the option to augment conversation options with agendas I don't want to reveal to an NPC. More focus on the role, less on the stats.
