Starker on 13/2/2015 at 22:07
Didn't see these mentioned: Max Payne 1-2, Planescape: Torment, Betrayal at Krondor.
froghawk on 13/2/2015 at 23:34
Ah come on, you have to give Deus Ex credit for managing to incorporate pretty much every major conspiracy theory into a single storyline that somehow didn't fall apart!
Gryzemuis on 13/2/2015 at 23:51
Truth is, I played Deus Ex exactly 15 years ago. And I can't remember the story.
While I was writing one of my previous posts in this thread, I realized that I can't remember the plot of most stories of games that I have played. Whatever the reason. But I do remember little details of games, that are not story/plot related. Funny NPCs, interesting situations, beautiful vistas, jokes, surpises, easter eggs. Those kinds of things. I seem to enjoy those elements more than most main stories.
Sulphur on 14/2/2015 at 03:08
I dunno if you mentioned Portal because I mentioned Portal, Gry, but the Portal I mentioned was (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_%28interactive_novel%29) this Portal. And the examples I gave you span much of the length of time that gaming's been around, so to say 'you have to go back 29 years to find a good story' looks like you're trying to fulfill some sort of confirmation bias instead of taking a proper look at the discussion.
Tony_Tarantula on 14/2/2015 at 05:09
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I just replayed Thief Gold. (I was planning to do that since 2006 or so. Started 2 years ago, finally finished it 2 weeks ago). Thief Gold was a great game. I think everybody here agrees. But now that I played it a 2nd time, I took my time to make sure I would fully understand that story. I watch all the cutscenes 3 or more times. (I think the main problem in 1999 was for me that a key scene (where TT&V reveal themselves) is played only once. If you don't pay attention, you miss it). Does Thief have a great story ? Nah, not really. It's not Tolstoj for sure. But the story worked for me. It gave a reason to string all the missions together. You start as a thief, you steal something from someone who is interested in you, you do a job for that person, etc, etc. The story itself is far from a reason to play the game. But it's good enough.
Keep in mind that "story" is far more than the total of events that take place. Thief is positively regarded for it's "story" because of the developers did an exception job of crafting an interesting setting, the atmosphere is unique, and every single conversation you overhear or readable you find both has some thought put into it and makes sense in the level's context. It also succeeds because (as is also the case with Other LGS games and Deus Ex) the amount of ludonarrative dissonance has been artfully pared down to an almost nonexistent level.
As they say it's all in the execution, and I have yet to encounter any game with a stronger execution than the Dark Project.
A counterexample would be Assassin's creed games or Farenheit, both of which tell stories that should be interesting but fall flat on their face due to a poorly thought out delivery.
henke on 14/2/2015 at 14:19
Gryz, I have no interest in arguing about any of those games' stories, because you seem very set in your opinions and I don't think you're gonna change your mind. Nor do I suppose I could change your mind about games in general. You seem to think that stories in games are overall so poor that the quality of a game's story should not be a factor when judging it. I disagree. Let's leave it at that.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Keep in mind that "story" is far more than the total of events that take place.
Indeed! I wouldn't put things like atmosphere and setting in there though. I think that's separate and comes more from leveldesign and art direction than writing.
Here's the elements of a game's story as I see them:
1.
Plot - A good, original plot is probably that hardest thing to do when writing a story. Most plots are repetitions of things from the past, and when it comes to stories that suit games well, the selection gets narrowed down even further. Much easier to simply tell an unoriginal story, but tell it really well and fill it with great characters that feel relatable and true. Still, the occasional good, original plot does surface. The Fall and Styx are 2 recent ones I thought did original things with their plots, tho in Styx's case the storytelling was so poor it muddled the whole thing.
2.
Characterization - The Last Of Us, Deadly Premonition, and The Walking Dead are good at this. Even if the stories are fairly straightforward, our investment in the characters keeps us hooked.
3.
Storytelling - even if a game's plot and characters aren't good a game can still provide an interesting story simply by being paced well, or having an interesting way of telling the story. Techland's earlier title Call of Juarez Gunslinger is a good example of this. Fairly standard western revenge story with stereotypical characters, but the way the story is told by the narrator, and the way it changes in the telling, keeps things interesting.
This is a fun subject to discuss. :)
Gryzemuis on 14/2/2015 at 22:12
I was under the assumption that "story" is mostly "plot". And yes, I don't think most plots in videogames are very good. Nor do I think plots in many novels are very good. After all, I believe that 90% of everything is rubbish.
But when you expand "story" to other things, yes, then I can agree with you. Characters, jokes, environment, background, I agree those can make games fun and interesting. Thief Gold doesn't have a very good story (compared to a good novel). But it does have stuff like the Keepers. And I loved the briefings (drawings, voice-acting, general atmosphere, etc). But that is what I meant by fluff and fringe. I guess I don't know a better word in English.
I can't say much about the plot of Dying Light. I haven't finished it yet. So far the story is ok, imho.
The main character, Kyle Crane, doesn't have much personality. The voice-acting is boring. And some of his lines are cringe-worthy. Just like a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie. :) But I don't care about that. I prefer my avatars in games to be as transparent and bland as possible. Because then I can be that character. I prefer a Gordon Freeman-style avatar, who doesn't speak a word during the whole game.
I'm not a game-gamer myself. Let me explain. I'm not the type of gamer that like games that require "skill". Precise movement, like in shooters. Or super-fast clicking, like in RTS games. The games I like above all others, are games with an open world, where you can roam around, have adventures, explore. Do stuff at your own pace. Dying Light is like that. Other examples are Skyrim and Morrowind. Even Thief is a bit like this (because the maps were huge, and not linear, and not pushing you forward). I played a lot of WoW. A lot. The main story in WoW is usually pretty crap. Even though it's based on novels you can buy. I enjoyed WoW for the exploration. For the weird places or fun quests you can encounter. (All that has been slowly removed from the game. One of the (many) reasons why I stopped playing).
So is that "story" ? It's definitely not the plot. If other things besides the plot help build the overall story, then yes, I can agree with you. Maybe I should have written: "I don't care much about the plot".
One small example from Dying Light.
[spoiler]In the Slums I encountered a boy who thought he was a werewolf. He asked me to help him. Of course I agreed. He need to make a special elixir to cure himself. We gathered garlic, wolfs bane and cinnamon. The boy ate the mixture. It tasted terrible. And then he declared himself cured ! The whole quest lasted maybe 5 minutes. Nothing spectacular. I expected something to happen, but the thing was over just like that.[/spoiler]
Very dry. I though the whole thing was pretty funny. Little stuff like this make a game for me. Other players would call it "just another boring fetch quest". I have no idea what those kind of players expect from a game.
Pyrian on 15/2/2015 at 06:01
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
So is that "story" ?
Yes. Indubitably.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
It's definitely not the plot.
"The" plot is kind of meaningless. In most cases it's still plot - unrelated subplot, but plot nonetheless. One of the criticisms frequently leveled at video games (as opposed to other entertainment media stories) is that "the" plot is frequently highly fragmented, the bulk of it consisting of subplots that aren't even thematically related to the main quest.
I don't really think that particular criticism is fair, BTW. TV shows do much the same thing. A large, open game might be better understood as episodic content, and is almost certainly experienced that way. Would you complain that a TV show "merely" has good episodes, but the overall arc of the series isn't very strong? I mean, it's a valid criticism, but I'm not sure it's necessarily an important one.
faetal on 16/2/2015 at 11:09
Story is a tricky one in games because the player has agency, so the more freedom you give the player, the harder it is to make the story fit the PC, because that part is dynamically determined. You can either railroad the possible range of things which the player can do in order to stick to a good, pre-determined story (Walking Dead) or you can make the story hang very loosely, letting the player have great freedom, but losing that feeling of there being a tight, over-arching narrative to the gaming experience (any GTA or clone).
