Amorpheus on 25/11/2003 at 15:19
I'm sure leaning will be addressed, it seems like a pretty easy thing to add.
I've addressed most of my concerns with the interface by editing my default.ini: change everything that uses Enter to Space, add V/B/N buttons as MenuBack (so they open AND close respective screens). I think that's it. There's also an unused bind for holstering items, although I don't think anybody has found out what the action for it would be.
ZylonBane on 25/11/2003 at 15:34
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia And still I wait for someone to list a downside to this 'consolification' that doesn't just equate "more intuitive and faster to use, BUT IT IS DIFFERENT FROM #1!". As said, what DE2 lacks is what DE1 lacked also. :erg:
Are you frelling blind? Okay, here are some of the things DX2 lacks that were present in DX1:
* leaning
* skills
* logged conversations
* toolbelt space (only 6 slots)
* inventory space (again, only 6 slots)
* area specific damage to the player
* varied ammo types
* aiming (no more shrinking/expanding reticle)
And that's just the stuff that's been removed outright. Other things, like ATM hacking, are still present but in dumbed-down form.
Also, the interface is only more intuitive and faster if you're using a gamepad. Things that made the DX1 interface so easy to use on a PC, like drag-drop and the tabbed interface, are gone.
Epos Nix on 25/11/2003 at 15:46
Look at #1892 :weird:
Warren Spector:
"Due to the negative response of this demo, I wholeheartedly support the delay of the release of this game in hopes that it can be altered to be more enjoyable to our loyal fans. Afterall, you helped put us on the map. We made a few mistakes, and now we hope to fix them. I will contact Eidos in the morning regarding this request and petition."
Unlike the George W. Bush, Will Smith, Black Baby Jesus and 3 other Warren Spector signatures, I'm almost certain this one is legit!
Blackjack on 25/11/2003 at 16:31
Quote:
Originally posted by Epos Nix Unlike the George W. Bush, Will Smith, Black Baby Jesus and 3 other Warren Spector signatures, I'm almost certain this one is legit!
Sadly, I'm not.
Ok, but other than lack of leaning, skills, logged conversations, toolbelt and inventory space, area specific damage to the player, varied ammo types and aiming, dodgy HUD, iffy AI, small spaces, dumbed-down ATMs and lockpicking, performance and contol issues, absent QC, crap mo-cap, etc, etc, etc, what's there not to like about the demo?
inselaffe on 25/11/2003 at 16:59
Quote:
Originally posted by Epos Nix Look at #1892 :weird:
Warren Spector:
"Due to the negative response of this demo, I wholeheartedly support the delay of the release of this game in hopes that it can be altered to be more enjoyable to our loyal fans. Afterall, you helped put us on the map. We made a few mistakes, and now we hope to fix them. I will contact Eidos in the morning regarding this request and petition."
Unlike the George W. Bush, Will Smith, Black Baby Jesus and 3 other Warren Spector signatures, I'm almost certain this one is legit!
you must have been dropped on your head as a baby
Uncia on 25/11/2003 at 20:10
Quote:
Originally posted by ZylonBane Are you frelling blind? Okay, here are some of the things DX2 lacks that were present in DX1:
* leaning
* skills
* logged conversations
* toolbelt space (only 6 slots)
* inventory space (again, only 6 slots)
* area specific damage to the player
* varied ammo types
* aiming (no more shrinking/expanding reticle)
* ATM hackingLeaning in DE1 was no Thief to begin with; it was practically the same leaning or strafing the same visual amount, the enemies saw you all the same.
Skills are a mixed bad. The idea behind them was good, but DE1 had pisspoor execution of them. Half the skills were useless [investing into swimming was a sad sad thing], you got the points in a contrived, why-the-fuck? manner, you could get multiple points for a completed area by abusing their poor scripting and just leaving the area and returning in another way... I wouldn't have minded if they'd improved the system, but incorporating the Skills Awards into the bio mod system is nothing tragical. It's different, it's not gone.
Since this is a demo, I don't think touching up on conversation logging is valid: sure, you don't remember /all/ that was said, but that was annoying anyway [much like playing Morrowind and having 50 000 topics to discuss by the end of the game]- you don't need to have EVERYthing someone said recorded, just what is of interest to you. The only reason I ever used conversation loggin in DE1 was to retrieve passwords, and info like that would no doubt get logged [that's what the Data Vault is there for, no?].
I'll give you the point for the toolbelt and inventory, but you never know, you might gain more spaces later on in the game; it looks like a flexible interface.
How do we know there's no area specific damage on the player? Just because there's no picture of it up there? We know it's there for the enemy, why wouldn't it be there for you? I agree it'd be nice if they went into more detail there as opposed to less, but again, it wasn't much of a concern in DE1 either; if any area got black, you died. If you got shot in the head, you died. That was about it; getting your arm shot didn't make your aim tougher, getting shot in the chest didn't make your breath underwater shorter... It was just for show.
Ammo types... Hm, maybe. We do have alternate fire, so that's only two per. On the other hand, we have /more/ weapons this time round, so instead of changing the ammo you change the weapon instead, not that big a difference. Personal taste I guess. I don't mind, you apparently do.
Point on aiming. We've not seen the full game yet so we'll see, but having a perfect shot with all weapons right away doesn't appeal to me. :erg:
Hacking has changed nada. The only thing that's different is that you don't have to open up an interface that slows the game down to 5fps to click Hack. No, you can't steal from people's accounts any more, but that was not a very well throught out feature in DE1 either. So people wrote their PIN numbers down in letters and dropped the datacubes containing them on random floors for you to find and, if you were lucky and hadn't hacked all the ATMs in the area yet, could steal 150 credits from them and buy a chocolate. Eh. Again, I'd have liked if they would have increased hacking complexity to at least SS2 standards, but I don't mourn the loss of illogical PIN numbers.
In the end, I suppose it boils down to this- I didn't play DE1 because it had a convulted GUI or because it had a lackluster skills system, I played it because it had a great story, great atmosphere, great music and gameplay freedom. As far as I can see, that's all still in there, and improved. I'm not happy with all the changes, but I for one prefer a poor design choice over no change at all, so fuck it, at least it's not the first game with a prettier engine [which is what I was worrying about].
Tej on 25/11/2003 at 20:43
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia Leaning in DE1 was no Thief to begin with; it was practically the same leaning or strafing the same visual amount, the enemies saw you all the same.
I suppose if you lean around a corner, there's always some part of you sticking out. So while you're not invisible, I'd still prefer being able to just quickly peek out, and know that, upon returning, I won't clumsily hit a dumpster and cause a racket, which I'd easily do by strafing left-right. But, hey, not having it in demo doesn't mean we might not see it eventually.
Skills... well, some were silly, but if you focused on the stuff you were using, like pistols or demolition weapons, you could really tune your gaming style. It gave some motivation for exploring more of the environment I suppose. Still, being equally good in everything you pick up may not spoil the game so much in the end.
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia Since this is a demo, I don't think touching up on conversation logging is valid: sure, you don't remember /all/ that was said, but that was annoying anyway [much like playing Morrowind and having 50 000 topics to discuss by the end of the game]- you don't need to have EVERYthing someone said recorded, just what is of interest to you.
A valid point. However, in Deux Ex, the data vault would only keep the conversations that took place in the current mission. That meant, you could still look back in case you got distracted during a conversation, or wanted to re-check something. I know I did on several occasions. At least you can see some deeper motivation for the tasks listed there.
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia I'll give you the point for the toolbelt and inventory, but you never know, you might gain more spaces later on in the game; it looks like a flexible interface.
It's funny how in Deux Ex, you'd finish the game with the same amount of inventory space that you would start with. No additional room was gainable, like in SS2.
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia How do we know there's no area specific damage on the player? [...] I agree it'd be nice if they went into more detail there as opposed to less, but again, it wasn't much of a concern in DE1 either; if any area got black, you died. If you got shot in the head, you died. That was about it; getting your arm shot didn't make your aim tougher, getting shot in the chest didn't make your breath underwater shorter... It was just for show.
Maybe not fully, but you really only died when head or torso got black (and, remember, point-blank headshots in Deux Ex 2 are not fatal!). If your legs went black, you'd crawl on the floor. With all limbs black, you'd still be alive. It was still more sophisticated. True, we don't really know if it's not the same here though.
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia Ammo types... Hm, maybe. We do have alternate fire, so that's only two per. On the other hand, we have /more/ weapons this time round, so instead of changing the ammo you change the weapon instead, not that big a difference. Personal taste I guess. I don't mind, you apparently do.
More weapons, but only 6 slots to carry them around. My most frequently used weapons in Deux Ex were tranq darts, baton, prod gun when baton wouldn't go, and dragon tooth for the tough ones. Will I get any equals on these? Is it valid I expect to see them?
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncia I played it because it had a great story, great atmosphere, great music and gameplay freedom. As far as I can see, that's all still in there, and improved.
Well put, and I agree. But the way you got through the story had to be satisfying, and at least to some extent comfortable.
We shall see.
ZylonBane on 25/11/2003 at 22:08
Uncia, I didn't state my personal preferences about the things I listed. I merely stated the fact that they are now gone.
The whole point of a sequel is that it expands on the original, but instead ISA has stripped DX to the bone.
jay pettitt on 25/11/2003 at 22:43
My two pennies worth:
on leaning...
Leaning may not have been popular on dx1 because the implementation was piss poor. That isn't a good reason to not try in dx:iw. We've got used to superior first person perspective games having a leaning function. We like it because it feels nice. It makes us feel that we are not a radio controlled lampost on wheels.
On skills...
In a fps I don't need a skill stat dictating how accurate a shot I am. I've got a mouse and a cross hair to do just that. If they have replaced skill stats with a game that requires skill from the player I'm all for it. Evidence from the demo doesn't point that way, but I can hope.
On inventory space...
How much junk can you carry in 'real life tm' Limiting inventory forces you and me to make tough decisions about the kind character we want to play. Sounds like Deus Ex to me. I think it a shame they don't go further.
On area specific damage (to the player)...
Sorry Uncia, but those are exactly the things that happened in dx1. If you hurt your arm you aim was fouled, your legs your agility suffered. It made me think where to apply med packs - on critical areas (head and torso) so that I could risk taking damage, or on my arms or legs so that I could better avoid damage in the first place. Class.
Uncia on 25/11/2003 at 22:49
OY! Don't be pulling no Nedan on us now. Large quotage baaaaaad. ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by Tej More weapons, but only 6 slots to carry them around. My most frequently used weapons in Deux Ex were tranq darts, baton, prod gun when baton wouldn't go, and dragon tooth for the tough ones. Will I get any equals on these? Is it valid I expect to see them?
So basically, you only used one weapon that actually had secondary ammo, and even there you only used one type of ammo. How does losing ammo types hurt your gameplay, pray? :)
Also- it's quite possible that on some weapons, alternate fire changes ammo type/firing mode. This would neatly sidestep the 2-fire limitation.
jay: if your arm was shot, you couldn't use weapons any more? Hm, if the fact it never once happened to me in 5 replays on Realistic are any indication, it didn't happen often enough to cry after it. ;)
And again, for all we know, it may still be in there. Just because there's no picture doesn't mean it's not [after all, damage does depend on area still].
