Blaze on 26/4/2009 at 14:53
I didn't play Portal or STALKER (my bad, really), but i have nearly the same reasons to dislike regen health as Papy does. However, one example of good execution of kind of it popped up in my mind: health system of Far Cry 2. Some similar health bar would be acceptable in DX3 i think, if it needs to be regen anyway.
Quote Posted by Papy
I will also say something else, and I know a several people here will disagree with me, but video games' stories are at best fast food level. The Stranger from Camus, Germinal from Zola and countless other left me with the impression of understanding a bit more about humanity. But the fact is I never saw a single video game with a story good enough to give the game some value only for the story. Not even close. Sometimes they achieve to create a strong emotion, like BioShock and Tenenbaum's hideout, but it's only punctual and overall very rare. After playing a game I never felt this need to be alone and reflect on some of the ideas presented. Because of that, the gameplay will always be the most important thing for me. I don't mind fast food, but I never eat fast food for the "experience". Fast food is to get some calories, nothing more. What I'm trying to say is even if Deus Ex 3 has the best story ever made in any video game (and saying it will would be extremely pretentious), it won't matter if the gameplay is boring. I don't mind if I have no choice but to eat fast food while on a great trip, but I won't travel 200 miles only to eat fast food. It just won't be worth it.
You are talking about stories as if every of them would be judgeable based on the same criterias. Right, video game stories are fast food, just like Hollywood movies's. But you can't say just because of this that the stories of Hollywood movies are worse than art movies's, neither that video game stories are inferior. These are not comparable. There are good and bad stories in blockbusters as there are in art movies. Yes, there are a lot of bad stories that try to make you think, and there are good ones, that don't. Even if they are more rare. So, if you want a story, that make you think, don't try to find them in genre movies or video games.
Not based on that, but i should agree, that video games usually don't have good stories. But now, i mean that their stories are just bad, even as genre stories. There is only two story in games that i found good. (And no, not the ridiculous DX story. BioShock? Just give me a brake...)
Quote:
am I the only only one left who still view video games as "games" and not just as a medium for a semi-interactive story?
No. I'm with you on that one (but i think i'm not counting, as i'm just a newbie here :)). However usually i just prefere the games with stories, and the settings are really important for me (so, i hope they really sacaled down the renaissance shit). Actually, i really would like to see games where the stories are implemented in a better way to the interactive sytem. And the first interactive narration...
Papy on 26/4/2009 at 16:22
Quote Posted by Necros
On higher difficulty levels, 1 or 2 headshots will kill you with regen health too.
That's what I read before and I'm sure it will be true. So? If you read what I wrote, you should have understood that this was not my complaint at all. I never said the player will never die because of regenerative health. In fact I said quite the opposite. Do I have to quote myself?
Anyway, I perfectly understood what you are trying to say, it's just that, as you guessed, I think what you're wishfully thinking has absolutely no value. As you admited, you don't know much yourself (in other words, I know how much as you about the game). The difference, is you act as a fanboy, something that is not natural for me. I'm just naturally too cynical for that. You are blindly accepting as true "what René said" about his general feeling of the game, but this is something I simply won't do. Not only because a particular taste is not necessarily shared by everyone, but also because... you know... René is paid to say the game will be "cool" and "great". If he didn't say it he would be fired immediately. Because of that, what René says about some his general feeling on the game has absolutely no value whatsoever.
Quote Posted by Necros
According to René, this part of the game is still intact
There's this used car I want to sell. It's not in perfect condition, but still in pretty good shape. Trust me. What? You're hearing a strange noise? Are you you sure? I can't here anything abnormal! Oh! look at the fantastic audio system here! Let me turn the volume all the way up for you! Now, do you see how great is the car? Trust me, this is the deal of the century! (BTW, This is a true story. There's really someone who tried that when I was young... but I looked at the guy, turned off the radio, drove for 2 minutes and said "no thank you". Do you think I did the right thing?)
Quote Posted by Ostriig
a company can have games based on similar general concepts (augs and inventory for DX and IW, regen and cover for R6 and DX3) and still pull them off very differently.
I agree, but my concerns are more about the general philosophy and the true reasons behind those design choices than some implementation details. So, in your point of view, why the people making Deus Ex 3 decided to implement those changes?
Quote Posted by Blaze
You are talking about stories as if every of them would be judgeable based on the same criterias.
Actually, there is a criteria that is common to all things and which is applicable to everything : my own interest. I agree I should have said video games' stories where like fast food *to me*, instead of being just like fast food.
Just out of curiousity, what were the two games with good stories?
Ostriig on 26/4/2009 at 17:00
Quote Posted by Papy
I agree, but my concerns are more about the general philosophy and the true reasons behind those design choices than some implementation details. So, in your point of view, why the people making Deus Ex 3 decided to implement those changes?
I know what you mean - it's about "vibe", and sometimes I get that same bad vibe from some of these changes to the Deus Ex archetype. To answer your question, it's because some of these new features are what is perceived as, at least at a corporate level, "the way to go" nowadays. Before the game goes into full development it has to be pitched to a corporate board, of whom many won't even remember Deus Ex (if they ever heard of it), and those who do will probably mainly remember that it "sold really, really well". Tell me, how likely do you think it is that when DX3 had to get a budget approved someone had to say "it's kinda like Bioshock"?
The fact is that we here at TTLG don't represent a noteworthy marketing demographic. In the long run, what I hope of games like Bioshock and Deus Ex 3 (and Fallout 3, actually) is to popularize FPS/RPG hybrids, allowing more developers to inch further away from the "FPS 2.0" buzzword towards that general area that spawned DX and SS, and recreate commercial awareness of "us" as a worthwhile market segment.
However, I'll say this again, I don't expect DX3 to be the DX1++ we all have wet dreams about, but I'm not closed off to it turning out a great game nonetheless.
Matthew on 26/4/2009 at 18:17
Quote Posted by Necros
Yeah, that's one of the worst things a developer or a publisher can do to ruin or screw up a game. KOTOR 2 and Star Trek: Legacy to mention two examples, both could've been even better games with a few more months.
Legacy was a horrible game, full stop. Most of that seemed to be down to design decisions.
Necros on 27/4/2009 at 10:57
As an arcade game it wasn't too bad. With a few more months, enough time to polish the controls and get rid of the bugs, it could've been a decent title. I still enjoyed it though, because of the story and the captains. But I'm still mad at Bethesda :nono: for wasting the licence. I mean, come on, someone has to make a Star Trek action-RPG! :grr: Elite Force I-II were awesome but an other game with more roleplaying elements and a longer story, with familiar places (like DS9 :cool:) would be my dream game. Too bad there's no sign of it. It's so obvious and yet no dev team or publisher is working on a game like that. Look at the KOTOR games, something similar or even better could be done in the Star Trek universe too.
Sorry for the long off-topic rant. :(
jtr7 on 27/4/2009 at 11:25
Who owns the property rights to the Star Trek games, now? With this new movie looking to be a success, surely someone's developing a game or making the deal to do so.
EDIT: Heh.
(http://startrek-games.com/new-star-trek-movie-game/) Googled.
Anyway, any more screenies coming, or do we have to wait for E3?
Matthew on 27/4/2009 at 11:36
Any game that is supposed to be simulating space combat but can't simulate Z-axis motion properly and for that matter uses a dodgems-car model for crashing is not a good game. I managed to suffer through a few missions before I handed it to a charity shop.
Also Necros, I presume that the whole point of Star Trek Online is for those purposes.
Necros on 27/4/2009 at 11:42
I know about the MMO but I don't really care for it. I don't like MMOs to begin with and it will be about a 100 (or something like that) years after the last Trek movie. I want a single player action-RPG (something like Deus Ex, Mass Effect or KOTOR) with known faces and places. :(
Quote Posted by jtr7
Who owns the property rights to the Star Trek games, now? With this new movie looking to be a success, surely someone's developing a game or making the deal to do so.
I think the rights to the series and previous movies still belong to Bethesda, but they don't have the rights to the new movie, that for sure, and anyting else that comes after it.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Anyway, any more screenies coming, or do we have to wait for E3?
I guess so. Maybe if the devblog goes online before that we can get some new stuff but I think they'll start that around E3 to, maybe leading up to it.
Manwe on 27/4/2009 at 18:11
Quote Posted by Blaze
Actually, i really would like to see games where the stories are implemented in a better way to the interactive sytem. And the first interactive narration...
That's exactly what DX did. Except for the cutscene at the beginning and at the end, the story was completely interactive. The entire plot was told through newspapers, e-mails, notepads, and conversations with NPC's. The amount of information you gathered depended entirely on your exploration of the world. The game never stopped to tell you "Ok this is the story right here, you're not playing anymore, listen carefully". Even entirely scripted sequences relating to the main plot always acted out as conversations you had to participate in. I really don't see how much more interactive you can get. All you can do is add more choices, consequences and paths for the player. But that just requires time and money. Look at the nameless mod, it may have the most interactive story ever made in a game, but it still doesn't have a consequence for your every action. That's because they only spent 7 years making it and not 20. I really hope the story in DX3 will be delivered in the same manner and that they won't lazily resort to cutscenes. As long as there are a few consequences to my action, and that I don't feel like I'm being spoonfed the story but rather picking up bits and pieces of it here and there as I explore the world, I'll be happy.
Anyway about the whole "will DX3 turn out like IW ?" thing. I've said it already, and I'll say it again, this has happened before. Ken levine himself came here to sell us Bioshock affirming that it would be exactly like System Shock 2 or even better, and that there was no need to worry. Well turns out the final game, while not bad at all, didn't have all that much in common with SS2 (gameplay-wise). So obviously we were all disappointed.
Well I'm pretty sure we can expect the same thing with DX3. I mean of course René is going to tell us what we want to hear, that the game will be super cool, and original (while remaining true to the first game of course), and that it will have great music, with an awesome story and gameplay and that we have nothing to fear and blablabla... But the truth is the final product probably won't have much in common with the original game except maybe for a few bastardized gameplay elements and a few references here and there.
Personally my worst fear about the game is that they're developping it with the gamepad controls in mind and that for this reason we'll end up with horribly simplified controls and crippled gameplay. You know, not being able to use the mouse in the inventory, no leaning, context sensitive actions everywhere (cause of the limited number of buttons you end up with one that does everything), not having to type passwords, and generally not having to think too much or make any effort whatsoever... The kind of crap we've had to put up with for the last few years basically.
I'm pretty sure that's how the game is going to turn out, cause that's how every game turns out these days. Doesn't mean it will necessarily suck or anything, just that it will play like shit on a keyboard (for a nice change).
