DX3 screenshots! - by Ostriig
Ostriig on 25/4/2009 at 15:38
I see. And you're right, I think I remember something mentioned a while ago about two-year development cycles at EM. Well, here's to hoping that "we won't rush the game" statement will turn out to be real and not just marketing.
Necros on 25/4/2009 at 15:48
Yeah, that's one of the worst things a developer or a publisher can do to ruin or screw up a game. KOTOR 2 and Star Trek: Legacy to mention two examples, both could've been even better games with a few more months.
Papy on 25/4/2009 at 15:53
Quote Posted by Necros
Choices and consequences, strong story, many ways to solve problems, DX1-like inventory, large maps, good music - just to mention a few things. :)
I have a tendency to be naive (my first reaction to the announce of Deus Ex 3 was overly optimistic), but I'm still somewhat realistic. I certainly have difficulties believing they want "consequences" considering they chose the regen health because they didn't want the player to actually search for resources if he took too many shots. Seriously, don't you see a contradiction in this? (BTW, This simple fact screams to me "even more dumbed down than Invisible War".)
As for "strong" story, yeah sure. I mean it's better than all those developers who actually design their games with weak stories. Of course I guess unlike Doom they are actually making a story, but is that really something for rejoice? I mean how low can your expectations be?
Same thing for "good" music. Seriously, what kind of argument is that? Is there really many developers who say "my game will have bad music"?
DX1 inventory, may be a good thing, but honestly the Tetris mini-game is not what really made me love Deus Ex. Anyway, it was not Invisible War's inventory that destroyed my interest for the second game. I certainly don't qualify Tetris-like inventory management as "core gameplay"
Large maps is definitively a good thing, but then again, what it mostly means is no loading zone and no cheap way to escape an NPC. Is really large maps a defining characteristic of Deus Ex compare to other games?
Is that all?
The thing is I know why I loved Deus Ex, but it looks like Deus Ex 3 will have very litlle of it. It may have other elements from Deus Ex, but those elements were not what made Deus Ex my all time favorite. If you want to understand what I mean, here's a hint : I don't like shooters.
Ok, there is two pieces of information I don't know and which may make me completely change my mind about the overall game design. The first one is will Augmentations be permanent like Deus Ex or swappable like Invisible War. The second one is will we be able to max out our augmentations like Invisible War or will it be like Deus Ex where there is simply not enough upgrades canister in the game to max out everything.
Quote Posted by Ostriig
We'll have the opportunity to find out how much the current devs' views coincide with our own soon enough.
If there is a demo, I will perhaps take the time to look at it out of curiosity, otherwise there is very little chance I'll buy this game. I didn't like Rainbow Six Vegas at all (you know, that other game from Deus Ex 3 developers with auto regen health and a cover system), I quit playing the game after about an hour, so I guess there is little chance "Rainbow Six Vegas : Invisible War" will be worth $60 to me. Ok, maybe $9.99 in a bargain bin, if only for the privilege of being able to whine about it in a forum.
Ostriig on 25/4/2009 at 16:08
Quote Posted by Papy
If there is a demo, I will perhaps take the time to look at it out of curiosity, otherwise there is very little chance I'll buy this game. I didn't like Rainbow Six Vegas at all (you know, that other game from Deus Ex 3 developers with auto regen health and a cover system), I quit playing the game after about an hour, so I guess there is little chance "Rainbow Six Vegas : Invisible War" will be worth $60 to me. Ok, maybe $9.99 in a bargain bin, if only for the privilege of being able to whine about it in a forum.
Well, not to nitpick, but Invisible War was the other game with
stealth inventory and augs from the original Deus Ex developers. So YMMV. As for the demo issue, I'm always pro having one, but in this particular case you can probably rely on TTLG to have plenty of feedback once it ships anyhow.
Necros on 25/4/2009 at 18:10
Papy, you are a "bit" nitpicky, aren't you? :)
Quote Posted by Papy
I have a tendency to be naive (my first reaction to the announce of Deus Ex 3 was overly optimistic), but I'm still somewhat realistic. I certainly have difficulties believing they want "consequences" considering they chose the regen health because they didn't want the player to actually search for resources if he took too many shots. Seriously, don't you see a contradiction in this? (BTW, This simple fact screams to me "even more dumbed down than Invisible War".)
That's just one aspect of the game and we don't know how it works yet. It won't be a simple CoD4 style regen and there will be a health bar too. And I don't think it's a really big deal if they do it right. This wasn't among the most important things in DX1 either. There's also what they've said about the story. This time if you side with one faction, there will be consequences from the others, and not just a slap on the wrist like in DX:IW.
Quote Posted by Papy
As for "strong" story, yeah sure. I mean it's better than all those developers who actually design their games with weak stories. Of course I guess unlike Doom they are actually making a story, but is that really something for rejoice? I mean how low can your expectations be?
Hey, easy man. First of all, most games don't have really good stories with moral dilemmas and such. And Mary DeMarle is the lead writer, so I think there's a good chance for a good story. James Swallow is also doing some work on the game and let's not forget Shaldon Pacotti who is helping out the team too. And 1 or 2 more people are on the team as well. And the main plot will last for about 20 hours with different endings, if you want to explore and do side missions, it can go up to 30 hours.
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Same thing for "good" music. Seriously, what kind of argument is that? Is there really many developers who say "my game will have bad music"?
You don't really follow the game, do you? Mr. K visited the studio and he heard the game's music, according to him it will be good.
We don't know if Alex Brandon is back or not but there are a few hints pointing towards this - or maybe I just want to see that. :D
DX1 inventory, may be a good thing, but honestly the Tetris mini-game is not what really made me love Deus Ex. Anyway, it was not Invisible War's inventory that destroyed my interest for the second game. I certainly don't qualify Tetris-like inventory management as "core gameplay"
Again, you aren't aware of some details. I thought you were, so I'll add that EM knows that the original's inventory wasn't perfect, so they are working on that too, to improve it. So, it's not over-simplified like in DX:IW and not a Tetris mini-game either.
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Large maps is definitively a good thing, but then again, what it mostly means is no loading zone and no cheap way to escape an NPC. Is really large maps a defining characteristic of Deus Ex compare to other games?
No, but it is a good thing.
No, check out the official forums for some more details.
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The thing is I know why I loved Deus Ex, but it looks like Deus Ex 3 will have very litlle of it. It may have other elements from Deus Ex, but those elements were not what made Deus Ex my all time favorite. If you want to understand what I mean, here's a hint : I don't like shooters.
I think the opposite, to me it looks like DX3 will be similar to DX1. Of course we don't have all the details, and some of the things we "know" are only promises (for now) but this is my feeling.
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Ok, there is two pieces of information I don't know and which may make me completely change my mind about the overall game design. The first one is will Augmentations be permanent like Deus Ex or swappable like Invisible War. The second one is will we be able to max out our augmentations like Invisible War or will it be like Deus Ex where there is simply not enough upgrades canister in the game to max out everything.
There's no info about the first one, I think, but I've got good news about your second question. You can't max out or even find every weapon or aug in one playthrough. And that also means you can't get every side mission and discover every hidden location (sometimes you'll need to use specific aougs to reach places) in one run.
Also interaction with NPCs and your surroundings will get a very important role again; shadow stealth is in (to some extent); we'll have iron sights too; renessaince style is still there but it's toned down; the team is aiming for a mature rating; no QTEs. - Just a couple more things I looked up for ya.
Oh, and you don't have to use the cover system at all, you can just duck behind objects.
Blaze on 25/4/2009 at 19:04
Roughly, I share Ostriig's opinion; i think that this game has a potential. However, I think it will be different from both of the DX games, not just from IW. But, i think and i hope that it will be fun; in another way than DX1, but still fun. Because all of this renaisssance environments & clothings, and other "out of the line" stuffs in the setting, i just can't look at it as THE prequel of DX1. If it's up to story and setting, i think DX3 will be related to DX1 in a similar way as it was DX:IW. The connection between the two doesn't seem to be quite... organic.
And besides my basically positive feelings about it, i have two major fears about the gameplay, too.
The first is the social aspect. It is so pointed out, that it seems to me that it will be carried out in a way like in other RPGs, throught "social skills". I really dont like this idea for a DX game tough, i was satisfied how things worked in the first two games.
The second is the movement and combat system. I don't want those shitty DX movements anymore and i would really appreciate for example the ability of mentling... and having legs... plus some similar (skill based) aiming system then DX1's. And honestly, i have never played a shooter not sucking with auto health regen.
Necros on 25/4/2009 at 21:46
Quote Posted by Blaze
Because all of this renaisssance environments & clothings, and other "out of the line" stuffs in the setting, i just can't look at it as THE prequel of DX1.
Oh, for cryin' out loud... :) The renaissance aspect has been toned down. And what out of the line stuff are you talking about? The high tech labs? We've only seen screenshots (okay, in-engine screens) from one location, one of those high tech labs. Also at this time the world was still thriving, not going down the drain like in DX1 (though we've only seen a small portion of the world in the game). And René said that there will be enough DX1-like places too.
And one more thing, I think if DX3 will be a financial success too, maybe we'll get a DX4 where we can experience the events leading right up to DX1, perhaps playing as Paul. :)
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The first is the social aspect. It is so pointed out, that it seems to me that it will be carried out in a way like in other RPGs, throught "social skills". I really dont like this idea for a DX game tough, i was satisfied how things worked in the first two games.
Things will work mostly the same, they are just pointing this out, so fans will know they know too that it was an important part of the first game and they are bringing it back and making it even better/more interesting. The conversations will be similar but improved, a lot.
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The second is the movement and combat system. I don't want those shitty DX movements anymore and i would really appreciate for example the ability of mentling... and having legs... plus some similar (skill based) aiming system then DX1's. And honestly, i have never played a shooter not sucking with auto health regen.
EM said that they are aware of this issue and they want to make sure that if you want to play the game as a shooter, you'll have a great time too. Skill based aiming is out but with some weapon upgrades you can change it's behavior.
And you haven't played with a good shooter using regen health? Too bad for ya, I know a few.
Papy on 26/4/2009 at 03:45
Quote Posted by Ostriig
in this particular case you can probably rely on TTLG to have plenty of feedback once it ships anyhow.
I agree, but the reaction here will be generally extremely negative even if this is a good game. You will have a lot of people screaming Deus Ex 3 is pure crap no matter what and a few who will say Deus Ex 3 is the greatest Deus Ex no matter what. I won't name, anyone but it's not like we don't know each other here...
BTW, since when IW had time-based regenerative health and a cover system? Rainbow Six Vegas had it, but not IW.
Quote Posted by Necros
Papy, you are a "bit" nitpicky, aren't you?
No I'm not. It's just that I'm not excited with meaningless words and marketing crap.
You know what? I'm perfectly aware I don't know exactly how the regen health will work. My guess is it will be like Rainbow Six Vegas since that's what Jean-François Dugas learned to do, but who knows... Having said that, how it works is not important, what is important is the reason developers gave to justify the change and implement a new system. So, tell me again what reason developers gave as a motivation to change the resources based healing system to an infinite health kind of system? And who do you think will benefit the most from this system? Do you think it will be the hardcore gamers who played the original Deus Ex or do you think it will be what I like to call the "light" gamer, that is the gamer who just want to have fun with video games and who don't like the idea of being punished for a wrong choice or a not so good execution?
Anyway, maybe you don't think it's a big deal, but I do. Universal ammo was not such a big deal for me, but regenerative health is. The only two games I liked with regenerative health were Portal and STALKER. In the case of Portal, it was a puzzle game, not a resources management game, so it was a good design choice. I mean being unable to solve puzzle #13 because you kind of screw up puzzle #11 would really be a bad design. In the case of STALKER, the regeneration was so slow that it did not really matters. And the truth is it was kind of needed because of the respawning enemies.
Apart from these two games, there is no other game with regenerative health I found interesting. The reason is there is no real incentive with regenerative health to do the best you can. You only have to do just enough to survive one battle, and then you just wait a few seconds to start anew. It removes most of the challenge (waiting a few seconds is not a "challenge" for me). At best a high difficulty can make single battles difficult, but the only real result is a lot of save and reload. It doesn't make the game really more difficult, it only makes it more boring (except of course for the obsessive-compulsive gamer who likes repeating the same thing 10 times). I guess you can choose to never save (that's what I normally do with games), but in this case it just make the game impossible. So it's either boring because it's too easy or impossible. There is no middle ground.
Another things regenerative health remove is fear based on expectations of what might be next. If you screw up a part of the game and barely survive with no resources left to heal you, there is a strong feeling of : oh shit, I hope I'll be able to find some medkits (or energy cells) BEFORE I get in a tough situation. This feeling is why finding a medkit is viewed as a real reward, as the medkit do ease your anxiety.
One last thing regenerative health remove is the occasional need to think of other solutions to get out of a bad situation. If you are out of resources to heal you and if an enemy is blocking your way, this is the time you begin to think about another way than just fight. It forces the player to actually think. And if the player is able to find a "clever" solution (clever from his own point of view), that is when he's beginning to thing : Hey! I'm good. This makes the game extremely rewarding.
Now, about consequences... Ok, so if I choose a side it will more or less block me from switching immediately after. So? I mean if I choose a side, it's because I want to be with this side, don't you think? I will agree it may make NPCs look somewhat more realistic, and the world won't feel as childish and as player centric as IW, I will agree this is a good thing (even if I generally don't like the "choose your faction" kind of presentation - I also like to point out that Deus Ex had no faction to choose from and that contributed a lot to the feeling of being caught in a conspiracy), but is this single characteristic enough to compensate for everything else? I mean am I the only only one left who still view video games as "games" and not just as a medium for a semi-interactive story?
I will also say something else, and I know a several people here will disagree with me, but video games' stories are at best fast food level. The Stranger from Camus, Germinal from Zola and countless other left me with the impression of understanding a bit more about humanity. But the fact is I never saw a single video game with a story good enough to give the game some value only for the story. Not even close. Sometimes they achieve to create a strong emotion, like BioShock and Tenenbaum's hideout, but it's only punctual and overall very rare. After playing a game I never felt this need to be alone and reflect on some of the ideas presented. Because of that, the gameplay will always be the most important thing for me. I don't mind fast food, but I never eat fast food for the "experience". Fast food is to get some calories, nothing more. What I'm trying to say is even if Deus Ex 3 has the best story ever made in any video game (and saying it will would be extremely pretentious), it won't matter if the gameplay is boring. I don't mind if I have no choice but to eat fast food while on a great trip, but I won't travel 200 miles only to eat fast food. It just won't be worth it.
On another subject, your interested for IW was destroyed because of the inventory? You mean a single detail with so little impact on the game can ruin a whole game for you? THAT was the reason? Are you serious? Because if you are, then you are certainly the most obsessed person I ever saw. I do tend to have some irrational behavior like everybody, but never to that point.
There's also something I like to know... You said the inventory of Deus Ex 3 will be "improved"... Can you explain how exactly? I mean you obviously know how it will be like, right?
Finally, you said we won't be able to max out our character in one playthrough... What the hell does this mean? Are you sure you understood what I meant with "maxing out" our character? Just to make things clear, I didn't meant we could try and see everything in one pass (even with IW you couldn't do that), I really mean maxing out the choices we made for our character.
Of course this single detail may seem mostly inconsequential, but the thing is it shows the mentality behind the design of the game, which is to me a lot more meaningful than any out of context detail.
Anyway, you are right for one thing, I don't really follow the game. There is no reason for me to as the only details that were given up to now show me that this won't be my type of game. I consider all the "good" points you mentioned as either superficial elements (for example I don't mind the renaissance look, tone down or not as I think any look could more or less do), or only as some vague ideas with nothing concrete behind (and whose goal is only to increase hype). So honestly, I don't see why I would waste my time reading a forum populated with naive kids who, with their self-centered vision of the world, take all their wishes for granted and who buy all the hype without even thinking for a second. I guess I'm just too old to be such an easy prey.
Yes, I know I'm condescending. I'm sorry, but I really do think I'm justified to be condescending. Sorry if this hurt your feelings. (Although to be honest I'm really beginning to wonder if you are not cheerleader who is paid to be so "optimistic")
Necros on 26/4/2009 at 04:15
Quote Posted by Papy
Another things regenerative health remove is fear based on expectations of what might be next. If you screw up a part of the game and barely survive with no resources left to heal you, there is a strong feeling of : oh shit, I hope I'll be able to find some medkits (or energy cells) BEFORE I get in a tough situation. This feeling is why finding a medkit is viewed as a real reward, as the medkit do ease your anxiety.
On higher difficulty levels, 1 or 2 headshots will kill you with regen health too. And like I said before, it won't be like in CoD4 or R6:V, what turns it on and how quickly/slowly it will heal you is still being tweaked.
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One last thing regenerative health remove is the occasional need to think of other solutions to get out of a bad situation. If you are out of resources to heal you and if an enemy is blocking your way, this is the time you begin to think about another way than just fight. It forces the player to actually think. And if the player is able to find a "clever" solution (clever from his own point of view), that is when he's beginning to thing : Hey! I'm good. This makes the game extremely rewarding.
According to René, this part of the game is still intact, it will make you think about alternate solutions.
I'm not gonna start arguing your other points because you don't want to understand what I'm trying to say and you are clearly not following the game closely, so you don't have every info about it.
And no, I'm not payed to be optimistic. I've got a low paying job, a night shift actually, yay, good for me... :erg: I have a few doubts too, we still don't a lot of things and what we do know isn't really detailed either. But based on Mr. K's visit to the studio, some previews, some of the devs and what René has shared so far, I think I can be optimistic too.
And you don't have any reason to be condescending either. You are not hurting my feelings (you'd have to try a lot harder to do that :)), but perhaps annoying me a bit. I get it, you are a "true hardcore fan" and I'm just a nobody, so my opinion doesn't count but I'll just tell you that DX1 is still my #1 favourite game from the day it was released, DX:IW was a dissappointment to me too (though I'm not as hard on it as some of the whining fanboys), but oh no, I like FPSs too, and other kinds of games as well.
And the loss of a few options with including regen health is bothering me too, but it's really not that big of a deal to me (with my play-style I wasn't really out of medkits or other resources, I prefer taking my enemies down silently or from a distance, or using clever ways). This isn't a crucial part of the game, the gameplay will still be very similiar to DX1. Of course I'd like to have the original's system, maybe combined with the new one but it's not a deal breaker or reason to be pessimistic for me, sorry.
Though if new details will be bad, I'll be all doom and gloom, just like you. :)
Ostriig on 26/4/2009 at 12:12
Quote Posted by Papy
I agree, but the reaction here will be generally extremely negative even if this is a good game. You will have a lot of people screaming Deus Ex 3 is pure crap no matter what and a few who will say Deus Ex 3 is the greatest Deus Ex no matter what. I won't name, anyone but it's not like we don't know each other here...
Yeah, you're most likely right on that one. But as you said, we do know each other here, so we all kinda know when we should take things with a grain of salt, be it for extreme criticism or suspiciously generous praise. What is certain is that there will be quite a few of us getting it first day.
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BTW, since when IW had time-based regenerative health and a cover system? Rainbow Six Vegas had it, but not IW.
I said "augs and stealth". Though on reflection, I think I'll change that to "augs and inventory", fits better. What I was getting at is that a company can have games based on similar general concepts (augs and inventory for DX and IW, regen and cover for R6 and DX3) and still pull them off very differently.
