poisonedashes on 28/12/2003 at 06:53
I know this is probably way early to be making recommendations about DX3 because it was only announced a few days ago, but I'm just curious what other people are hoping for in the next game. Based on the previous DX games, I personally think the map size of DX1 was much much better than the second. I'd like to see larger maps but more-so, different maps. In DXIW, you were always in a city. Whether it was Ciaro, Trier, ect. you never left a city-like environment. In DX1, you went to the desert to destroy a nuclear missle, Vandenburg, Lebedev's terminal---I'd like to see more of those maps. I'd also like to do some more swimming. There was no water in DXIW except for a shower or sink.
More character developement and interaction. In the first DX, you actually had a bond with Paul, Jamie, Alex, ect. Other than a brief encounter with Billy and the other Tarsus people, there was no specific direction you felt morally obligated to go in. I think Alex, or who ever the user will be playing next, needs a relationship that some how ties into the plot... but maybe that's just the girly side of me. That was one of the best parts of DX1. You felt obligated to protect Paul in his apartment when Unatco stormed in because there was a relationship at risk. With DXIW, I didn't want to kill Billie or Klara. That was about it.
Overall, I'd just like to see more character interactions and larger, more diverse maps. The game was so good because the plot sucked you in and I actually left the game feeling upset that I had finished it. This may be to "girly" but it was an emotional, dramatic game and I hope that the DX3 people don't spend to much time just trying to make it "perdy" and focus on the plot.
There's my two cents,
Ashley
Melan on 28/12/2003 at 11:40
[SPOILERS]
First: as crazy as it sounds, I would prefer if it wasn't a direct sequel to either Invisible War or DX1. The first game succeeded because it presented a world close to our own, with the addition of cyberpunk and conspiracy elements. It was deeply rooted in modern pop culture. Everyone has read about black helicopters, government conspiracies, the Illuminati and so on. People recognize these themes because they are all around us and familiar to us. Likewise, the clichés of cyberpunk are fairly well known - the idea of cybernetic modifications and nanotechnology, hacking computers and ATMs.
DX1 didn't work just because it had a good story. It worked becuase it was familiar. Even if we haven't visited NYC or Paris, we have still seen them in movies. We know what to expect. DX:IW doesn't have this advantage. The world is removed from our experiences. It is too futuristic, too different. Hell's Kitchen and a corrupt government controlled by secret organizations are familiar from fiction, city states, nanite clouds, arcologies and the other elements of the future aren't. It is hard to build an attachment to them. I know what the Illuminati are supposed to be, but DX:IW's Templars are unfamiliar. The Order is also alien (a common faith? not our world, definitely), the Omar are reminiscent of Fallout (as is their ending) and the WTO isn't like today's organization of the same name, either.
The only way to get familiar with these people is contact, and lots of it. Thief, a fantasy game, did it well, because you got to know the Hammerites, the Pagans and the Keepers - as well as the lords and thieves of the city - through eavesdropping, long missions, books and parchments. Unfortunately, DX:IW is too short, too compressed for this, and even when there are a few good ideas, they ultimately lack the neccessary punch because you don't care about the people involved yet (and after watching the endings, I am absolutely disgusted by each and every one of them). Take the coffee companies, for example. It is about six hours into the game and you already know they are one and the same. Half an hour later, you know the frigging WTO and Order are the same, too! (BTW, as soon as I heard her Holiness, I immediately knew who it was - nice touch.) It didn't work as foreshadowing.
More's the pity, because it could have been good. But you need significantly more time between two revelations. In DX1, there is a brilliant introduction to MJ12: you first meet them in NYC when you don't know anything about their conspiracy yet... And here is this hidden facility in the sewer system, and they are dumping chemicals into the water (classic conspiracy theory fare, BTW!). You go on your merry way destroying the NSF - and then you find yourself imprisoned by the same organization. This is good storytwelling, just like realizing that you have just entered UNATCO from below.
DX:IW happens all in a day (remember Sid going to sleep? - maybe not even a full day). DX1 wasn't much longer, but it felt like more because you did a lot of things before meeting previously introduced players once again. The small size and compressed nature of the levels is also problematic. In Emerald Suites, it doesn't matter if you enter rooms via the ventillation shafts, through the front door or from above by breaking the glass ceiling, becuase all routes are so short. Compare this to the ways you can approach the NSF generator. Also, it may be just me, but the levels seriously lack height. Area 51 was DEEP. The UC in Hong Kong was gigantic. NYC had tall buildings. That is lost with small levels, too.
...Hmm, apparently this is turning into another bitchfest. Sorry. :(
Back to DX3. I would prefer if it was an entirely new story based on DX1's themes:
-a modern, almost contemporary world
-conspiracies which are familiar to us (Masons, anyone?)
-cybernetics
Maybe make it play in the same timeframe as JC's adventures, with some links (you get to visit some of the same locations) to his story. The hero could be approaching the same conspiracy from a different viewpoint - for example, that of the government agent who ends up working FOR Page and MJ12. Put a different spin on the whole situation with the NSF as real bad guys and the Illuminati as even worse.
:D
madphilb on 28/12/2003 at 17:30
Quote:
Originally posted by Melan [SPOILERS]
First: as crazy as it sounds, I would prefer if it wasn't a direct sequel to either Invisible War or DX1. The first game succeeded because it presented a world close to our own
This is something I didn't quite connect, but I agree....
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...Hmm, apparently this is turning into another bitchfest. Sorry. :(
I'll take this bitchfest over all the "XBox made this game suck" crap that's been going around (though it's seemed to have died down a bit). Take the level size issue... most people just complain the levels are too small (lots of load screens, etc)... but you've given some thought as to why that's a bad thing.
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Back to DX3. I would prefer if it was an entirely new story based on DX1's themes:
-a modern, almost contemporary world
-conspiracies which are familiar to us (Masons, anyone?)
The biggest problem with using a group like the Masons would be that they are a real group..... dispite conspiracies related to them, they are a real group (my grandmother got a discount for a summer camp that she sent me to for several years thanks to some Masons that knew my grandfather).
One of the games from the last few years had this problem if I recall... Hitman 2 maybe? The level was set at a temple of sorts, the "bad guys" where real people, and not really bad in life... I think they went back and discamered the level or something.
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Maybe make it play in the same timeframe as JC's adventures, with some links (you get to visit some of the same locations) to his story. The hero could be approaching the same conspiracy from a different viewpoint - for example, that of the government agent who ends up working FOR Page and MJ12. Put a different spin on the whole situation with the NSF as real bad guys and the Illuminati as even worse.
That would be pretty cool.... kinda like the expansion packs for Half-life... the same events from a different perspective.
One thing they'll need to do is tweak the engine.... they made this engine with all sorts of "neat" things that where supposed to come into play (realtime shadows, yet they never change... difference in playin man/woman with their different body types/weight, etc.) In the end they didn't have anything that played much different from the original, most of it worse. As a stealth game, Splinter Cell was far superior in almost every way.... if they want to keep their "tools" in the game, they should put them to use.
PHIL
poisonedashes on 28/12/2003 at 18:43
Quote:
Originally posted by Melan [SPOILERS]
The first game succeeded because it presented a world close to our own, with the addition of cyberpunk and conspiracy elements.
I hadn't thought of it that way but you're right. I think that is also why I'm a thief-a-holic. Even though Thief is not my time zone, it was very realistic. Civilization did look like that at one time---minus the zombies and frogbeasts.
I remember when Doom first came out and I wasn't that tickled by it, but when Duke Nukem came out, it was more realistic---the bar scene, the burgerworld, the theme park. So, I definately agree that familiar surroundings are easier to become attached to.
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The Order is also alien (a common faith? not our world, definitely), the Omar are reminiscent of Fallout (as is their ending) and the WTO isn't like today's organization of the same name, either.
I think if there is a direct sequel, the templars ending would be best. by taking away biomodification, the game would have to backtrack to a world more familiar to us---like the first DX.
I still think Alex, JC--whoever you play as next time, needs to get himself a girlfriend. We are all familiar to relationships and that would be an instant bond with a character that could drastically affect how you play the game.... (there goes my girly side looking for attachment)
In thief, there was never a public relationship between Viktoria and Garrett, but you still felt a connection with her. (I don't want to go too much in depth with that because people who read this might not have played all of thief)
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DX:IW happens all in a day (remember Sid going to sleep? - maybe not even a full day).
I didn't know it took place in a day. Wow! that really does make it dissapointing. I assumed it took a week or two, but when sid said he was going to sleep, I guess you're right... hmmmph, that sucks.
It's not a bitch-fest if you're giving constructive criticism. I think the majority of people were slightly, or more than slightly, dissapointed with DX:IW.
Ashley
thegrommit on 28/12/2003 at 20:07
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Originally posted by madphilb That would be pretty cool.... kinda like the expansion packs for Half-life... the same events from a different perspective.
Which would no doubt result in a new round of complaining about how Ion had run out of ideas ;)
Seriously though, I'd love to play a game in the period between the two episodes. The transition from Collapse to the DX2 period would make for some interesting storytelling - albeit somewhat constrained as to the possible endings.
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One thing they'll need to do is tweak the engine.... they made this engine with all sorts of "neat" things that where supposed to come into play (realtime shadows, yet they never change... difference in playin man/woman with their different body types/weight, etc.) In the end they didn't have anything that played much different from the original, most of it worse. As a stealth game, Splinter Cell was far superior in almost every way.... if they want to keep their "tools" in the game, they should put them to use.
PHIL
Shoot a light - the shadows move in time with the light swinging. I'm hoping that Ion will now have some time to tune the engine in time for Thief3, in addition to patching it for DX2.
madphilb on 29/12/2003 at 00:55
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Originally posted by thegrommit Shoot a light - the shadows move in time with the light swinging. I'm hoping that Ion will now have some time to tune the engine in time for Thief3, in addition to patching it for DX2.
Well, yeah.... it's nice eye candy and all.... but at least in Splinter Cell you can shoot the light out as well! The whole selling point for realtime shadows was to change the enviornment.... something which is hardly ever done.
PHIL
BlackCapedManX on 29/12/2003 at 06:56
Vehicles. That's all I have to say.
Okay it isn't but it makes a good point. Driving things is fun. But to quote the quote files in the 5th ending: "we have 16 weeks left, plenty of time" "we could work on the vehicles again" "dude, how lame would that be, driving a car down a hallway?"
Definately points to the small map size though. even before that quote, DXIW had me convinced that the future had disolved into a giant pile of hallways.
On a more productive and topic related note, a timeline parallel to JC, but from a grunt's perspective, I think would be an excelent game. Maybe three stories, one from MJ12, one from UNATCO, and one from NSF. Or maybe a prequel even, and if you want a "one man happens to be able to decide the fate of the world" scenario you could play as one of the first mechanical augmented units.
As for "bringing it closer to home", to ideas that everyone knows about, conspiracies that people can relate to,"cities more identifiable than cairo and post-collapse seatle, you also have to balance that with "keeping the faith", making sure that you don't deviate to far from the storyline. This essentially restricts you to not going to far into the future, going so far ahead that you're dealing with space travel and the like because you're out of the "close to home" area of things and there's only so far that you can go with this plot before it gets either to selective or too convoluted ("well Alex D. actually sent everyone the helios hub thing, allowing all humans to join to a single mind, the illuminati to take over the world, all biomodification destroyed and plunging into yet another dark age after all the leaders died and the Omar attempted to take over." wouldn't work to well). So you have to stay with in the DX1 timeline for the most part, either slightly prior, slightly after (mid-collapse society would be interesting, though again, not to close to home, unless you really play it out and give it a lot of time for people to get absorbed in it), or as a side story.
Or it could somehow end up being another world war two game. With a giant "SUPRISE" written across it.
