Chimpy Chompy on 21/11/2002 at 01:59
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Originally posted by Marecki
I've heard this before. What I've never heard is how this can be achieved... Got any proof? I'm sure I've knocked out Gunther before. Just get his health right the way down to something like 6%, then put a tranq dart in him...
santaClaws on 21/11/2002 at 10:10
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Originally posted by Marecki (..) - namely adventure games.So we only half agree (agree halfly? half-agree? we're only half agrees? what's the right version?): In adenvtures, which are of course way more nonlinear than DX could ever have been, there is not necessarily a "right" and other "wrong" ways to accomplish plot parts. In DX, there are indeed. Eg letting Jojo kill them is wrong, killing Jojo is a bit wrong, stunning Jojo is even less wrong, and threatening him that he runs off is the best you can do. Or the like. That's exactely what I'd like to see in DX2: more subtle choices where you can't say whether it's wrong or right to do this. Or choices, where you can say whether it's right or wrong, but you don't know whether it affects any outcome, eg if you give a beggar some money, maybe he has got something interesting, maybe not.
SJamieson on 21/11/2002 at 11:41
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I don't think so. I mean, of course it's fun to drive against the right direction in a racing game (just to see what it's like), but you soon get tired of it. It just isn't any fun. As is for me playing DX against certain rules the game world and my personal opinion impose upon me. And yes, I'm still having fun.
YES but the challenge in a racing game is to find the best line and you achieve that by
Trying a slightly different way of taking the track each time, and you don't limit yourself to always taking some corners in the same way. It's against my personal views to break the speed limit but If I'm playing a racing game I drive at high speed and sometimes eraticaly to achieve the best possible performance. So the same can be said for Deus Ex I would not kill anyone in Cold blood, but if the scenario I find myself in playing a cop out to defend both civilians and my partners(whichever side I'm on) then I use whatever force is neccecary.
It's only been 60 years since my grandfather was called up to fight, and he did so knowing that he would be called to kill people in defence of his country. My other grandfather had a reserved Ocuupation and wasn't called up. My personal beliefs do not allow me to kill so I never joined the armed services myself, I know people who do and I hope that if I ever have to make that decision, I don't hesitate to do what is required of me. But perhaps coming from a neutral country you don't have to think about that risk?
You're welcome to your views but If one day I'm attacked whilst walking through the streets of vienna I'd like to think you'd help me and not just walk on by...
[SPOILER]As long as it's not you that attacks me for writing this post. :)[/SPOILER]
cadaver on 21/11/2002 at 18:40
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Originally posted by PowerCrazy It is ENTIRELY possible to knockout Gunther, Anna and Simons.Yes, Simons & Gunther take damage from the darts at least, very slowly though. But Anna's Unrealscript code (just checked) causes her to completely ignore any non-lethal attacks.
A shame, it would have been kind of cute to [SPOILER]drop stunned Anna at Gunther's feet in Battery Park, then disappear like a shadow and infiltrate the Erewhon ..oops, I mean MJ12 facility through the front door. Not
that much more work for the developers?[/SPOILER]
santaClaws on 21/11/2002 at 23:11
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Originally posted by SJamieson I know people who do and I hope that if I ever have to make that decision, I don't hesitate to do what is required of me. But perhaps coming from a neutral country you don't have to think about that risk?I like my country, but just for the reason I was born in it. If I had been born in another one, I'd love the other. I am ready to defend my country, but not without restrictions and not altogether. And
not with force or weapons. First, I hate weapons, and second, a country cannot be as important as a life.
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Originally posted by SJamieson You're welcome to your views but If one day I'm attacked whilst walking through the streets of vienna I'd like to think you'd help me and not just walk on by...Heh, I would indeed. But, as you may not know, Vienna is a fairly big city. Just call me.
PowerCrazy on 24/11/2002 at 21:57
Gunther and Simons I am POSITIVE you can KO. the way i do it is use targeting aug lvl 4 so i can get an exact readout of their current health. Then I shoot them with the sniper rifle a few times aiming for the torso until the next shot will kill them. Then soften them up a bit more with the Assault Rifle only three damage per bullet. until their overall is around 1%. Then a single tranq dart and down they go, sleeping like a baby. Now the reason i question weather or not you can do that to anna is because when you get to kill her (even at UNATCO HQ) you don't have all your augs and they certainly aren't lvl 4. therefore you can't use the above method on anna, HOWEVER, I think i did knock her out when i played long ago. The method was a sniper rifle to the head three times (Rifles on trained) Assault rifle peppering for a while. and finally a Gas Grenade with periodic Tranq darts. And down she went. now while the UnrealEd script says she takes no damage from non-lethal you can still ko her. Reason the tranq darts do 25 damage, regardless. then do some more damage afterward. This additional damage we can assume anna is immune to however the initial Damage form the tranq dart will hurt her and if she only has 25 hit pts left, well down she goes. That should work. The key is you have to soften them up via lethal means. then when they are weak Come in for the Non-lethal Coup de Grace. Bam one KO'ed mech.
Hopefully that will help clear up some issues with the Non-Lethal game.
santaClaws on 25/11/2002 at 12:10
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Originally posted by PowerCrazy Gunther and Simons I am POSITIVE you can KO. the way i do it is use targeting aug lvl 4 so i can get an exact readout of their current health. Then I shoot them with the sniper rifle a few times aiming for the torso until the next shot will kill them. Then soften them up a bit more with the Assault Rifle only three damage per bullet. until their overall is around 1%. Then a single tranq dart and down they go, sleeping like a baby. Now the reason i question weather or not you can do that to anna is because when you get to kill her (even at UNATCO HQ) you don't have all your augs and they certainly aren't lvl 4. therefore you can't use the above method on anna, HOWEVER, I think i did knock her out when i played long ago. The method was a sniper rifle to the head three times (Rifles on trained) Assault rifle peppering for a while. and finally a Gas Grenade with periodic Tranq darts. And down she went. now while the UnrealEd script says she takes no damage from non-lethal you can still ko her. Reason the tranq darts do 25 damage, regardless. then do some more damage afterward. This additional damage we can assume anna is immune to however the initial Damage form the tranq dart will hurt her and if she only has 25 hit pts left, well down she goes. That should work. The key is you have to soften them up via lethal means. then when they are weak Come in for the Non-lethal Coup de Grace. Bam one KO'ed mech.
Hopefully that will help clear up some issues with the Non-Lethal game.Quote:
Originally posted by Chimpy Chompy I'm sure I've knocked out Gunther before. Just get his health right the way down to something like 6%, then put a tranq dart in him... Not much to be added here.
lunatic96 on 29/11/2002 at 05:45
It's also possible to entirely bypass Anna by stunning one of the black suits in the MJ12 base and picking up the key he has on his body. Then you simply lure Anna away from the door and head out.
Marecki on 24/12/2002 at 15:07
It's been a while but I've finally got time to write the follow-up, as well as some replies. I'll start with the latter.
ferret:Quote:
Hehe, I just loaded up the level and checked. By doing this, of course, the flag for Anna dying hasn't been set. Even here, instead of mentioning that you killed Anna, he says "I do not forget that you left me as a prisoner of the NSF", and JC replies "You came all the way to Paris to tell me that?". That's given as the reason for Gunther's personal grudge! I LOVE THIS GAME.
Yes, what's not to love about DX... It is so great. By the way, the message you've mentioned (as well as the other two, depending on one's actions at the Statue) is also played when JC has killed Anna on Lebedev's plane (and therefore nobody has any proof it was him, thanks to Alex); however, Gunther still transmits "I will not forgive the killing of Agent Navarre" when JC's about to leave UNATCO HQ for the last time then.
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Oddly enough though, I did manage to rescue the hostages, on two seperate times playing this non-lethal type method. The first time took huge advantages of game bugs, and involved a helluva lot of running around in circles around the MJ12 soldiery with Speed and Regen augs on. The second time was just amazing and totally stealthy - almost like Mission Impossible, or something. Everything was just at the right place at the right time, I made the right amount of noise in one place, and people went off to investigating it, allowing the hostages to escape...
Actually, I almost managed to do the same thing (the totally silent rescue). I think it was about the twentieth reload in that section (with the save point being after I'd gone to disable the guns with the terminal at Agent Hela's command post and crept back): I unlocked and opened the blast door, then went to the side opposite to the one the hostages always take. There was one of the unconscious troopers there I'd forgotten to search before; I found a weapon I didn't need, so dropped it - and the sound alerted the two commandos. Without thinking twice I activated the Run Silent aug, went the other way and entered the makeshift cell (that's what triggers the escape attempt) at just the right time for the hostages to avoid being spotted by anyone from the next room. Unfortunately there was still the last commando to think of, the one patrolling one of the corridors between the bunkers. The woman went the right way, the man ran straight into the soldier and then
froze in place when the latter started shooting at him. Argh!
I had one of the two hostages safe and the other one died only due to the AI engine (hadn't he stopped running I could've simply step between him and the enemy with armour and Regeneration active), but I wasn't satisfied. Alas, I never managed to get it even that far again... so I got discouraged and allowed myself some bloodshed with explosives. A couple of minutes later I discovered it was enough to upgrade Low-Tech Weapons to Master.
santaClaws:Quote:
imo the choice between good and bad is too easy to be made, like: help unatco = bad / help nfs = good, kill = bad / let live = good, use force = bad / use lockpicks = good, give food to little kid = good / don't give food to little kid = bad aso. the possibilities should be more subtle.
Indeed. There was a similar thing in
Archimedean Dynasty, the way of getting all the extra missions was simply being a suck-up sycophant in all conversations. One thing I really miss in
Deus Ex is being able to decide
not to help Paul. It wouldn't be necessary for ISA to make it possible for JC to be introduced into MJ12 and work with them, eg. going to Hong Kong to protect VersaLife from saboteurs and then to kill Tracer Tong (even though it would make DX definitely the greatest game of this kind EVER), a simple "JC getting framed by the NSF to make him cooperate" would do.
Still, some people still complain about moral relativism being so widespread in computer games so maybe this was ISA's way of saying "remember kids, being good pays".
Chimpy Chompy and the others mentioning the "wound severely, then shoot with a dart" technique:
Admittedly, it works. I don't like this though: it's like throwing hammers at Haunts in RTC so that even though they are dead (as required by objectives from a certain point), they do not shows in damage stats. If I've already used lethal means to bring their health so low, why not finish them off? One can argue of course whether 6% health can be fatal for Anna and Gunther (I believe it would, their flesh does not regenerate) or Simons (arguable), but it still stinks.
Besides (a weak argument but neverthless a valid one), Vision Enhancement is much more useful than Targetting while playing sneakily and it's not easy to determine exactly when to stop shooting and switch to darts, at least in Gunther's case (how much health does Simons have when he turns invisible and hides?).
lunatic96:Quote:
It's also possible to entirely bypass Anna by stunning one of the black suits in the MJ12 base and picking up the key he has on his body. Then you simply lure Anna away from the door and head out.
Were you playing the patched or the unpatched version of DX? As far as I remember there is only one Man in Black down there, at the Nanotech Lab, and he only carries a Stealth Pistol. Since I'm rather thorough with searching the bodies I doubt I could've missed another one, especially this last time (when the greasels and the karkians didn't devour any corpses).
Since TTLG went down while I was writing the tactics notes and it's late now, I'll post them tomorrow.ferret on 25/12/2002 at 05:35
Nice one Marecki, looking forward to it. :)
