That Miserable Thief on 3/9/2006 at 05:35

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Gotcha. I'm pretty sure everyone I've ever played with started with a 5-piece kit. Hell, one guy I played with while playing melodic death metal still used a five piece kit with a double pedal and added a tom and cymbal occasionally. I don't think any of them ever took lessons. I know one played a snare in high school.

This earlier quote:



should read:



I hope that makes sense.

Parker'sSire on 3/9/2006 at 07:06

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True. That's why I referred to your previous mention of this as both true and wise. And also why my statements should be taken as "my opinion"... but if you're hiring a session player (and not for name recognition), it is, I believe, a pretty well accepted opinion. ... in my opinion :)
It's just part of my own definition of a great musician.

So... are you saying that you believe that, contrary to my statement, a great musician cannot or doesn't need to play what the song/music calls for? Because that is what I said. Nothing more.

I put it to you... Why would you want to hire a player who has no interest in or cannot serve the song?


For better or worse, the person with the money has the "right" taste, as you put it.
Traditionally, the producer... and the band, or the band leader. Historically, bands often have one or two persons who call the shots; they aren't always democracies. All bands are different, all work and build music differently. I've had several friends whose bands have been trashed by producers who were trying to shape them into something they weren't. It's not a perfect world.
In fact, as another friend said after her band gave up the ghost after 3 albums, "music is wonderful, the music industry sucks".

Ultimately, the audience has the "best" taste. These kinds of discussions prove that.


True, unless the music (in whomever's opinion) calls for repetition. (Yeah, I know...this kind of argument can go in circles forever.)


... I hesitantly agree. I don't consider 12 toms to necessarily be more resources. They're just more drums. I've worked with drummers who've been ridiculously varied and unrepetitive with 2-3 rack toms and 1 floor.
But neither fett nor I are saying that you should take resources (or drums) away from anybody.

Of course not, or at least, not exactly. It just seemed that you were accusing fett of limiting the musician, but then describing a genre that, itself, prescribed what or how the musician could play.
In reading you most recent responses, I don't think you meant it that way.

But the question remains, can the drummers to whom you refer play a jazz gig? or sit in with a folkrock band? or a classic rock and roll band?
Steve Gadd could (and has). Terry Bozzio could.

A friend who I consider to be a great bass player, even though he is not technically "amazing", used to play alternative rock with me, then joined a "Ministry" style band, then would do sessions with an pop rock band, then would record and play bass for a folk artist.

And are you saying that drummers who don't use a huge kit sound repetitive and unvaried? I don't think that's what you meant either.

I don't think of Eddie as a great source of variation, and neither, apparently, does he. He once sat in at a small club with guitarists Albert Lee and Steve Morse. After a while of taking turns taking solos, he sat down. He had the class, good nature, and the respect to admit that he had gone through everything he knew and that these other guys were in a different kind of league.
Im not exactly talking about the type of variation you refer to. I had refered to (part of) my definition of a great musician as being someone with the kind of experience and variation that lets him/her sit in with whatever style and to understand and play what that style and song needs. That's, I believe, all that fett meant too.
We aren't putting down genre players but simply complementing these other guys.
... and I love Van Halen.


No one does. It usually comes from working with the writer/artist before or knowing (being told) what the writer/artist wants to accomplish and trying to do it.
(e.g. Mr. Producer: "I want a Brian May type sound here, does that make sense?" ... pulls out a CD. or "I want the same snare sound as on Bowie's "Let's Dance"." ... pulls out another CD, then actually EQs the damned snare to get the sound).
(e.g. Michael Jackson telling keyboardist Michael Boddiker that "you know what I want" and then leaving Boddiker in the studio to record the kbd parts.)

Lots of people can't at all. Producers Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis can't work with any music except what they've written themselves. U2 tried to be a cover band in Ireland and stunk... Edge can basically play what he can play. ...they're not good at copping other artists licks and styles.


oh, yeah.

I take that for granted.


You are the writer, the drummer, and the producer. You call the shots. No one can argue or second guess your decisions. In this case, it fits the music because you say that it does. As you said, if I were to re-record your tunes, it might turn out very different. But the parts I come up with would still have to "fit" the song as I envisioned it. And anyone playing on my version should still have to "play the song" as fett put it. (Listen to Yes' version of Paul Simon's "America" or Tori Amos' version of "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or any of several versions of any songs.)

Nicker on 3/9/2006 at 08:54

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Yes - he's playing off Chick's grove but he ain't grooving himself. He's extemporising (tongue in cheek definition of jazz extemporisation; if you make a mistake, repeat it) but it's too much of a mess to be called a grove (IMHO I really think he is screwing up in that clip, not just playing around the meter).

Any drummer worth their salt can grove. Aside from illustrating the rhythm, grove is a big part of their job. To claim that nobody can do it better than Gad (or Pert or White or...) is to invite a hearty smack.

Most drum solos are way too long and are little more than musical masturbation. While a given drummer may 'wank vewy highwy in Wome', the solo rarely does anything to serve the song. I prefer to do short rhythm breaks with the bass player or other percussion, where you weave some sort of magic around the foundation of the piece, not just show off your chops.

Another performance worth checking out is the (then) very young Simon Philips on "801 Live" (Brian Eno and Phil Manzanera). His four way cordination is astounding and his speed phenominal (Carl Palmer? pheh!).

fett on 3/9/2006 at 15:28

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Oh shit - I forgot about Simon Phillips - that guy is also brilliant and has played on just about everybody's record at some point in time. He's like a chameleon though, because everytime you hear him you'd swear he's been part of the band for 20 years instead of a hired gun.

That Miserable Thief on 3/9/2006 at 22:20

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I'm goind further off topic here, I think, but...



...which is why I don't want to be a part of it. I would never stand for anyone outside my (past or future) band trying to influence what I/we write or the way I/we play it. Sure, I'd like to make money, but you have to play what you like and be honest about it to be happy. That's how I feel, anyway. I know that the type of music I play appeals to a very limited audience. So be it. I'm not that in love with playing my instrument to play anything just to make a living by doing it. That's why I work a day job. I also wouldn't have the patience to produce anyone else's music.

I've always been in bands by meeting people through other people. "Hiring" a band member is a foreign concept to me. There was never much money involved in my musical endeavors, unless you count me shelling it out for equipment, gas, and lame-assed sound men who coudn't mix a nursery rhyme. Money has no impact on my creativity or finished product. The joy of playing the music is enough. I've had much more fun playing in band practices than I've ever had playing shows. I don't need an audience, validation, notoriety, etc. I think what I do is good, challenging, and fun to do. If someone wants to pay me for it, great.

I've never been in a band where one or two members called the shots, and wouldn't want to be. I think a band should be a collaboration, not a one or two man band who happens to have live people to play the other instruments the way they've been told.



Yes, it should.