fett on 3/9/2006 at 01:21
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Just because you have had unsatisfying experiences with "death metal"(or in your case, I'd say "poor") drummers doesn't mean your comments about death metal hold true.
Point. I think you've stated it a little better than I. I pick on death metal drummers because I've given lessons to quite a few that just wanted to play fast but not well, which isn't typically a problem with new drummers who like a wide variety of styles. I'm aware that death metal guys also listen to other stuff (I do...).
Without exaggerating the point, I'm just saying that drummers tend to be more competent at a variety of styles when they start simple, on a smaller kit, then add on as their personal style develops. Alot of guys just get the cart before the horse, and tend to be more interested in copying fast, flashy players (hence my Peart and Portnoy comments), rather than studying the basics from guys like Ringo, Poccaro, Couliata, etc.
For the record, I think death metal drummers are some of the best players out there. Soilwork, In Flames, Sepultura's drummers particularly have brought alot of flavor to the style. They really stand apart from even the old school guys. It's definitley my favorite style of drumming to listen to, I just wish it wasn't so narrow sometimes.
Parker'sSire on 3/9/2006 at 07:06
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
It all comes down to this being an extremely subjective thing: ... Who determines this? The listener? It's all a matter of opinion and taste.
True. That's why I referred to your previous mention of this as both true and wise. And also why my statements should be taken as "my opinion"... but if you're hiring a session player (and not for name recognition), it is, I believe, a pretty well accepted opinion. ... in my opinion :)
It's just part of my own definition of a great musician.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
I guess some people have taste that is more "right" than others.
So... are you saying that you believe that, contrary to my statement, a great musician cannot or doesn't need to play what the song/music calls for? Because that is what I said. Nothing more.
I put it to you... Why would you want to hire a player who has no interest in or cannot serve the song?
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
Once again, who determines this?
For better or worse, the person with the money has the "right" taste, as you put it.
Traditionally, the producer... and the band, or the band leader. Historically, bands often have one or two persons who call the shots; they aren't always democracies. All bands are different, all work and build music differently. I've had several friends whose bands have been trashed by producers who were trying to shape them into something they weren't. It's not a perfect world.
In fact, as another friend said after her band gave up the ghost after 3 albums, "music is wonderful, the music industry sucks".
Ultimately, the audience has the "best" taste. These kinds of discussions prove that.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
The music requires variation to avoid repetition.
True, unless the music (in whomever's opinion) calls for repetition. (Yeah, I know...this kind of argument can go in circles forever.)
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
Variation is more easily acheived with more resources.
... I hesitantly agree. I don't consider 12 toms to necessarily be more resources. They're just more drums. I've worked with drummers who've been ridiculously varied and unrepetitive with 2-3 rack toms and 1 floor.
But neither fett nor I are saying that you should take resources (or drums) away from anybody.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
I don't see any contradiction whatsoever. So you are saying that a drummer playing a style of music that requires a wide variation of drumming so as to not sound repetitive is limited because he can't simply play on only 3 or 4 of his drums?
Of course not, or at least, not exactly. It just seemed that you were accusing fett of limiting the musician, but then describing a genre that, itself, prescribed what or how the musician could play.
In reading you most recent responses, I don't think you meant it that way.
But the question remains, can the drummers to whom you refer play a jazz gig? or sit in with a folkrock band? or a classic rock and roll band?
Steve Gadd could (and has). Terry Bozzio could.
A friend who I consider to be a great bass player, even though he is not technically "amazing", used to play alternative rock with me, then joined a "Ministry" style band, then would do sessions with an pop rock band, then would record and play bass for a folk artist.
And are you saying that drummers who don't use a huge kit sound repetitive and unvaried? I don't think that's what you meant either.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
I don't go around saying Eddie Van Halen should reduce the number of variations he uses on a given riff and just play. the. song. acting as an ultimate authority. If I don't like it, I don't listen to it. Whether or not I think the varied augmentations he uses add to the song is absolutely irrelevant.
I don't think of Eddie as a great source of variation, and neither, apparently, does he. He once sat in at a small club with guitarists Albert Lee and Steve Morse. After a while of taking turns taking solos, he sat down. He had the class, good nature, and the respect to admit that he had gone through everything he knew and that these other guys were in a different kind of league.
Im not exactly talking about the type of variation you refer to. I had refered to (part of) my definition of a great musician as being someone with the kind of experience and variation that lets him/her sit in with whatever style and to understand and play what that style and song needs. That's, I believe, all that fett meant too.
We aren't putting down genre players but simply complementing these other guys.
... and I love Van Halen.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
Seemingly, 20 years of guitar playing and 10 years of playing with others hasn't allowed me to develop the ability to know what any given song anyone else has written calls for with absolute certainty.
No one does. It usually comes from working with the writer/artist before or knowing (being told) what the writer/artist wants to accomplish and trying to do it.
(e.g. Mr. Producer: "I want a Brian May type sound here, does that make sense?" ... pulls out a CD. or "I want the same snare sound as on Bowie's "Let's Dance"." ... pulls out another CD, then actually EQs the damned snare to get the sound).
(e.g. Michael Jackson telling keyboardist Michael Boddiker that "you know what I want" and then leaving Boddiker in the studio to record the kbd parts.)
Lots of people can't at all. Producers Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis can't work with any music except what they've written themselves. U2 tried to be a cover band in Ireland and stunk... Edge can basically play what he can play. ...they're not good at copping other artists licks and styles.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
I know there are a lot of boneheads out there (that goes for any style of music)
oh, yeah.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
...but there are also a lot of very talented and interesting players out there that happen to play death metal.
I take that for granted.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
I write my own music and use a software drum machine. My tracks are all very busy, especially with beat variations, but I include many grooves and I'm of the opinion that they fit the songs well. They, at the least, maintain my interest.
You are the writer, the drummer, and the producer. You call the shots. No one can argue or second guess your decisions. In this case, it fits the music because you say that it does. As you said, if I were to re-record your tunes, it might turn out very different. But the parts I come up with would still have to "fit" the song as I envisioned it. And anyone playing on my version should still have to "play the song" as fett put it. (Listen to Yes' version of Paul Simon's "America" or Tori Amos' version of "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or any of several versions of any songs.)
That Miserable Thief on 3/9/2006 at 22:20
I'm goind further off topic here, I think, but...
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"music is wonderful, the music industry sucks"
...which is why I don't want to be a part of it. I would never stand for anyone outside my (past or future) band trying to influence what I/we write or the way I/we play it. Sure, I'd like to make money, but you have to play what you like and be honest about it to be happy. That's how I feel, anyway. I know that the type of music I play appeals to a very limited audience. So be it. I'm not that in love with playing my instrument to play anything just to make a living by doing it. That's why I work a day job. I also wouldn't have the patience to produce anyone else's music.
I've always been in bands by meeting people through other people. "Hiring" a band member is a foreign concept to me. There was never much money involved in my musical endeavors, unless you count me shelling it out for equipment, gas, and lame-assed sound men who coudn't mix a nursery rhyme. Money has no impact on my creativity or finished product. The joy of playing the music is enough. I've had much more fun playing in band practices than I've ever had playing shows. I don't need an audience, validation, notoriety, etc. I think what I do is good, challenging, and fun to do. If someone wants to pay me for it, great.
I've never been in a band where one or two members called the shots, and wouldn't want to be. I think a band should be a collaboration, not a one or two man band who happens to have live people to play the other instruments the way they've been told.
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Actually, it should probably read "I'm as likely to allow the drums to fill that space as I am the guitar"
Yes, it should.