Qaladar on 1/9/2006 at 20:17
Is it just me or does that first video sound a lot like the drum solo in In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida?
Aja on 1/9/2006 at 23:16
Gadd's not tripping over himself, he's playing off of Chick's rhythm.
TheGreatGodPan on 2/9/2006 at 02:06
Of the relatively younger drummers, I like Damon Che from Don Cabollero.
I can't really hold up any virtuoso here for praise, but I really dig the drums in Kiowas by Sepultera.
Let's move beyond mere drummers who get one chance to shine for every twenty the guitarist gets, and move on to ones that led got to have their own bands. I remember asking people at a different forum this same question, but it was a much dimmer crowd than the worldly ladies and gents that give life to this place: Tony Williams or Billy Cobham? Don't say Phil Collins. Or Ian Mackaye.
That Miserable Thief on 2/9/2006 at 15:21
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Ya know what I've learned about Ringo? He's really underrated, but if you were to take away every single other track but the drums from any given Beatles song, you could still tell exactly which song it is. He plays the song - not the drums.
I could listen to just the drums from any given song by many bands who have drummers "masturbating" all over their songs and still know which song it is. Why? Because the drummers use their styles in memorable ways. The drums are part of the song, so saying "play the song" doesn't really make much sense to me. You seem to be really saying, "play the song the way I want it to be played", which seems to relegate the drums to mere timekeeping with the occasional fill or time signature change.
Calling earlier Peart busy and unmemorable? I can't agree. Peart's playing
makes some of those songs - and this is coming from a guitar player.
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Take note deth metal wannabes - one bass pedal, one floating tom. Go practice.
That's great for fundamentals, but that wouldn't quite work with the extreme amount of riffs, accents, time changes, etc. involved in death metal. The amount of actual notes in much of the more aggressive underground (for the most part) metal wouldn't allow for a 4 piece kit without sounding repetitive. More riffs and changes packed into a song requires more variation from the drummer to make the song interesting and unique. There's no way any drummer can play as fast on one pedal as he could with two, plus there is a different sound between the two techniques, assuming triggers aren't used.
The last quote above is like telling me to take 4 strings off of my guitar and go practice with two or telling an opera singer to limit his range to one octave. Just because someone
doesn't limit their playing to the way you like or think they should doesn't mean they
can't.
It all comes down to personal preference, of course. Believe me, I understand not wanting to hear one instrument (including vocals) completely standing out over the rest all of the time, but I also don't want one completely hidden under the rest all of the time, especially the drums.
jprobs on 2/9/2006 at 15:55
Peart and Portnoy are the best at their game.
But you gotta give it up for Animal!! That was rockin'!
No one has mentioned Nicko McBrain?!
Parker'sSire on 2/9/2006 at 17:21
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
The drums are part of the song, so saying "play the song" doesn't really make much sense to me. You seem to be really saying, "play the song the way I want it to be played", which seems to relegate the drums to mere timekeeping with the occasional fill or time signature change.
I'm not sure where this conclusion comes from. I don't read this in fett's comments at all. I'd much rather have a drummer playing "the song", listening to the other musicians, and occasionally breaking rules to fit and complete the bands performance as a whole. To me, the phrase "playing the drums", as fett used it and as opposed to someone who "plays the song", would be the description of someone who could be replaced with a drum machine (something I've had to do more than once).
More than one musician has been ridiculously successful by listening, mainly, to him/herself and not playing "with" the other musicians. (A notable example is, according to Joni Mitchell, Jaco Pastorius). That doesn't make them a great musician... it makes them a great, in this example, bass player in the sense that fett meant a "drum player".
A musician like Steve Gadd could sit with any band or musician in the world and not only hold his own, but he would "play the song". What a great musician can do is play what the song/music calls for. For all that he's been maligned over the years, that's what Ringo usually did. Even if it didn't satisfy McCartney's perfectionism, it usually worked.
Quote Posted by That Miserable Thief
That's great for fundamentals, but that wouldn't quite work with the extreme amount of riffs, accents, time changes, etc. involved in death metal...The last quote above (referring to Buddy rich using a single floating tom) is like telling me to take 4 strings off of my guitar and go practice with two or telling an opera singer to limit his range to one octave. Just because someone
doesn't limit their playing to the way you like or think they should doesn't mean they
can't.
Again, I don't think this is what fett is saying at all. He is talking about playing what the song, the message, and the creativity calls for. You're being rather contradictory with your statement accusing fett of wanting a drummer to be "limited" to playing just what fett wants. You actually just mentioned a genre and a style (death metal) , and, following, a type of drummer, that, by your own description "requires" much more than a small drum kit. To me THAT is a limitation.
Know any guitarists that can't play without tons of distortion and/or other effects on the instrument?
THAT'S a limitation.
I understand that different types of music have different requirements by definition, and I am not putting genre players down (I admire every player mentioned ITT for what they do) but it's your response to fett's comments that bothers me.
If I hired a "world class" guitarist for a project and the only guitar available had 3 strings, then I would expect that guitarist to do a hell of a job with those 3 strings. And I've actually been in a situation where I've had to ban a bassplayer from playing his high G string, and much of the D string, because what he insisted on playing did not fit the song or what the other musicians were playing. (Great bass player, lousy musician).
This isn't an example of making the musician play the song, as you say, "the way I want it to be played". It IS saying that it may not be OK for it to be played the way HE wants to play it. Why do you think Fagen and Becker would record several session players' solos then pick the one that fit best?
BTW, practicing with 1 (or 2) strings is exactly how (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Goodrick) Mick Goodrick suggests that you practice. (or at least how to learn the basics of fingerboard mechanics..OK, so I'm simplifying here). Being able to play on 1 string (or 2) is half, along with Position Playing, of what guitar playing is about. And please note that fett was referring to "deth metal wannabes", not real pros who already know how to play.
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It all comes down to personal preference, of course.
In the end, very true. ...and wise.
My vote (it's a tough vote):
If I could call one drummer for a project it would probably be Terry Bozzio. Either big kit or little kit.
TheGreatGodPan on 2/9/2006 at 20:08
Surprised I forgot to mention King Crimson in their double-trio THRAK incarnation, with Buford and Mastelotto. I can't think of too many other conventional bands that had multiple drummers, but I don't think too many are able to throw together so much and make it sound so good like King Crimson can.
fett on 3/9/2006 at 00:05
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Originally posted by The Miserable Thief The drums are part of the song, so saying "play the song" doesn't really make much sense to me. You seem to be really saying, "play the song the way I want it to be played", which seems to relegate the drums to mere timekeeping with the occasional fill or time signature change.
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Originally posted by Parker'sSir To me the phrase "playing the drums", as fett used it and as opposed to someone who "plays the song", would be the description of someone who could be replaced with a drum machine
Exactly - that's all I really meant. I think also there are places for 'busyness' (The Beatles 'She Said' and certain Tool songs come to mind), but when it's all the time, in every song, to the point that it almost overshadows the rest of the band...it just betrays a bit of the mindset that the playing is more important than the song. This may be true for some bands, but most songs that are mastabatory are typically unmemorable to me. A drummer who actually knows the lyrics to the song is worth his weight in gold because he'll play the song.
My comments about death metal usually hold true. My experience is that most of those guys can play faster and harder than anyone, but if you ask them to hold down a simple 2/4 groove, they simply can't do it because all they know is playing busy, and playing lots. I'm a big fan of negative space in songs because, just like in art, games, and literature, it makes the positive stuff count all the more. Drummers (and I are one...) are notorious for not letting the song breathe - which is the brilliance of Ringo, Gadd, etc.
Hear hear on the Terry Bozzio call. Listen to him play perfect pop songs on Vai's 'Sex and Religion' - here's a guy that can blow your face off technically, but knows how to shutup and groove when the song calls for it - that album is a great example of what I'm talking about.
That Miserable Thief on 3/9/2006 at 00:49
It all comes down to this being an extremely subjective thing:
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What a great musician can do is play what the song/music calls for.
Who determines this? The listener? It's all a matter of opinion and taste. I guess some people have taste that is more "right" than others.
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He is talking about playing what the song, the message, and the creativity calls for.
Once again, who determines this?
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You're being rather contradictory with your statement accusing fett of wanting a drummer to be "limited" to playing just what fett wants. You actually just mentioned a genre and a style (death metal) , and, following, a type of drummer, that, by your own description "requires" much more than a small drum kit. To me THAT is a limitation.
The music requires variation to avoid repetition. Variation is more easily acheived with more resources. That drummer can use any and all of his additional resources in the way a 3 piece kit would be used in any combination, and avoid repetitive sound much more easily. I don't see any contradiction whatsoever. So you are saying that a drummer playing a style of music that requires a wide variation of drumming so as to not sound repetitive is limited because he can't simply play on only 3 or 4 of his drums? He can, at his discretion. Or he could try to play on a kit with one bass, a snare, and one tom and try not to repeat himself much during the frequent riff and time changes that are prevalent in some of said music. I feel that more resources allow more freedom, not limitation.
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Know any guitarists that can't play without tons of distortion and/or other effects on the instrument?
THAT'S a limitation.
Obviously. I don't know any, though. I play everything I know on an acoustic at various times for practice and it sounds good to me.
I don't go around saying Eddie Van Halen should reduce the number of variations he uses on a given riff and just play. the. song. acting as an ultimate authority. If I don't like it, I don't listen to it. Whether or not I think the varied augmentations he uses add to the song is absolutely irrelevant.
I understand the point about playing complimentary parts to enhance the song and sound of the band, but that is what is so subjective about the whole discussion. Seemingly, 20 years of guitar playing and 10 years of playing with others hasn't allowed me to develop the ability to know what any given song anyone else has written calls for with absolute certainty. I think the song calls for what the people who wrote it play. I wouldn't change anything I've heard Portnoy play in any song. If I played it myself (well, if I played it myself it would sound like falling down the stairs)...If I
created the drum parts to the songs myself, they would be much different, but I'm not going to say it would be better or even close to as good, or fit. His creativity is what I love and admire, and I think it fits the band and their songs well. I feel the same way about Peart.
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My comments about death metal usually hold true. My experience is that most of those guys can play faster and harder than anyone, but if you ask them to hold down a simple 2/4 groove, they simply can't do it because all they know is playing busy, and playing lots.
Well, it seems you've experienced creatively and fundamentally limited drummers that happen to play death metal, then. The style of music played has nothing to do with an individual's ability to have a broad scope of competency. I've played with several drummers over the years who like all types of music, and we've played thrash, speed, and death metal together - and they all have been able to play, and shift in and out of, odd time signatures very well, and we incorporated many different time signatures into our originals over the years. They've all been very technical, and they've also all been able to refrain from standing out by grooving fantastically. I wouldn't have played with them for long if they weren't able to do even one of those things. One of the drummers I played with didn't even really listen to death metal, he just played it.
Just because you have had unsatisfying experiences with "death metal"(or in your case, I'd say "poor") drummers doesn't mean your comments about death metal hold true. I know there are a lot of boneheads out there (that goes for any style of music), which is part of why I'm not in a band now, but there are also a lot of very talented and interesting players out there that happen to play death metal.
I write my own music and use a software drum machine. My tracks are all very busy, especially with beat variations, but I include many grooves and I'm of the opinion that they fit the songs well. They, at the least, maintain my interest. As far as negative space is concerned, I'm as likely to allow the drums to fill that space as the guitar. It's all about taste.
