Swiss Mercenary on 30/11/2009 at 22:17
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
that has detrimental effects on the gameplay by promoting generic-monster-spam-as-gameplay-mechanic even beyond levels seen in most other RPGs.
Can't argue with that - but it is a design failure that piggy-backs on regeneration, but is not a direct consequence of it.
Let me put it this way - If 90% of the encounters were not generic monster spam... This wouldn't be an issue.
You can also put too much generic monster spam in any game with Magical Resting That Fully Restores You (Or just about does that). Monster spam is the issue - the recovery mechanic has little to do with it.
Not that it would stop Koki.
hurr durr console tards
Pyrian on 1/12/2009 at 00:47
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
For a gameplay discussion that's irrelevant though, really- as a developer you should not be setting difficulty based on someone QL/QS/rest spamming (metagaming, basically) after every fight with a kobold or you will find it impossible to balance properly as the player can
always get an optimal outcome if they are willing to spam enough.
Assuming people will play a certain way is a luxury good game design simply cannot afford. People will generally play in the manner the game rewards them for playing - frequently even if it's not
fun. The reality is that most games are designed around the concept that quicksave and quickload (for example) will be used reasonably frequently. Many games go to great effort to make that mechanic
even easier because game designers realize that re-playing substantial amounts of gameplay just to retry one challenging section isn't
fun for most players.
Replenishing health/mana in an RPG is a
core mechanic. Game designers in general are not going to relegate that to "Well,
hopefully people will play this the way they
ought to rather than the way we
reward them for." (At least, not any more, with many millions of dollars invested in each title.)
Zygoptera on 1/12/2009 at 02:30
I largely agree with what you say- critically, in this case though the 'solution' is, effectively, making rest spam a mandatory and unavoidable part of the game. Whether or not an individual player would have exploited the system there is now no choice about the matter. IMO that actually takes a great deal of difficulty gradation and nuance out of the game.
I really don't think that that is a good solution.
Phatose on 1/12/2009 at 05:50
It's not as if the regenerating health is the only system for recovery in the game - this isn't Call of Duty. It sits on top of a layer of expendables.
Players are generally put back to full health and mana in between fights. Which can strip out nuance, but only if the game is balanced so that full health and mana will always be sufficient to get through a fight. I do not believe this is the case in dragon age, at least not at the higher difficulties.
If, for example, the game is balanced so that in a typical fight, at full health you'd use 2 healing potions and 2 mana potions, then you're still getting the whittle down effect.
If this is the case, regeneration actually adds to nuance by giving the player a very obvious reason to excel. If you can get through the fight without using any of your expendables, then you get to keep your potions and you're back at full strength.
I have trouble believing giving players an impetus to genuinely excel is stripping out depth. Switching back to a more classical style would just be trading rewarding players for succeeding back to punishment for messing up. The whole of gamings progress recently has been carried on that realization - rewarding players works better as motivation then not punishing them does.
steo on 1/12/2009 at 14:37
But in other fights, if the player can win without any of his characters being killed, he needn't bother trying to do the fight 'well' and reduce the overall damage taken, because as long as no one dies and no potions are expended, it makes no difference. Also, the system leads to some silly overkill in certain fights, where you spam all your high-level mage spells just because you can.
Don't get me wrong though, I think the system in Dragon Age works very well for what it's trying to achieve. I'm playing on normal and generally have to be on my feet for most fights - I think I'd find any higher difficulty frustrating. The level scaling also ensures that you generally can't win fights without any real player input, which was an occasional problem with NWN2.
The old D&D 8-hour resting system certainly has it's own advantages and disadvantages to the DA system, and personally I thought that system worked pretty well, they just fucked it up in NWN with 6 second resting and NWN2 with party members getting back up after a fight with a free heal. The expansions to NWN2 handled party death properly though at least, with sub-0 hp being unconscious through to minus half your max HP at which point you need a raise dead to revive them. It seems like this is more a case of the target audience preferring things like regenerating health and no permanent party death.
Matthew on 2/12/2009 at 23:04
Just for UK people's information, I'm cross-posting this from the Bargain thread:
Aerothorn on 27/12/2009 at 22:08
YARGGGH
So I just figured out (from looking at it at in the store) that the Stone Prisoner DLC code that comes with new copies of the game expires in April. I thought that the whole "making a chunk of the game DLC" thing was pretty lame in the first place, but I was sorta grudingly willing to accept it as a way to combat the used game market. But this isn't doing that - it's combating price depreciation, ala if you buy this game after April when the price may have dropped you have to give us an extra $15 (which is ludicrous when you can get plenty of whole games for $5) for the complete experience.
Trying to figure out if I bite the bullet and accept that, buying DA:O before April, or protest the whole money-grubbing affair. It's honestly a game I'd like to give a shot but there's so much on my gaming plate for the foreseeable future.
I know it's fashionable to blame EA and not Bioware but the latter is at least complicit in such practices.
Andarthiel on 28/12/2009 at 08:02
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
YARGGGH
So I just figured out (from looking at it at in the store) that the Stone Prisoner DLC code that comes with new copies of the game expires in April. I thought that the whole "making a chunk of the game DLC" thing was pretty lame in the first place, but I was sorta grudingly willing to accept it as a way to combat the used game market. But this isn't doing that - it's combating price depreciation, ala if you buy this game after April when the price may have dropped you have to give us an extra $15 (which is ludicrous when you can get plenty of whole games for $5) for the complete experience.
Trying to figure out if I bite the bullet and accept that, buying DA:O before April, or protest the whole money-grubbing affair. It's honestly a game I'd like to give a shot but there's so much on my gaming plate for the foreseeable future.
I know it's fashionable to blame EA and not Bioware but the latter is at least complicit in such practices.
I didn't know that:erg:
That is aboslutely stupid, I thought it was free, unconditianally.
I'm reaching the end of the game(at least I think I am) with my female elf rogue. Although I'm regretting not entering the Lothering Tavern because I missed out on Leliana and didn't know about it until it was too late to go back.Shame, she would have made a more interesting romance option than Zevran(he was annoying at best).
Oh yes and I killed Wynne to make Morrigan happy:ebil:
Finally have enough srength to wear Blood Dragon Armor(yay!).
Iroquois on 28/12/2009 at 09:44
Quote:
Although I'm regretting not entering the Lothering Tavern because I missed out on Leliana and didn't know about it until it was too late to go back.Shame, she would have made a more interesting romance option than Zevran(he was annoying at best).
I missed out on her the first time for the same reason, which is a pity, because she's a sweetheart.
But AFAIK, she's straight as an arrow, so romance is out of the question if you have a female character.
redface on 28/12/2009 at 09:53
Quote Posted by Iroquois
But AFAIK, she's straight as an arrow, so romance is out of the question if you have a female character.
Not true :cool:
