Koki on 9/10/2009 at 13:44
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
Nice way to spin my statement, and avoid dealing with the issue completely.
You should be happy, because your original statement is nothing short of retarded.
Matthew on 9/10/2009 at 13:46
So's publicly trying to defend piracy, but hey.
Ostriig on 9/10/2009 at 15:42
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
This is the oldest, most bullshit response that pirates use to justify their software theft. I used it when back when I was a warez kiddy, until I realized how destructive my actions were to the industry I love.
Come again? If you're actually
sincere and sensible about your intentions, then it's not unfair and no more destructive to an industry than any informed purchase.
That's to say, if you download a game (and, hypothetically, do not distribute at the same time, as with torrents) just to use it
as an actual demo in the absence of an official one. And that means that you play it for, I don't know, half an hour, one hour, as long as an actual demo for it would take and then you make a decision to either buy and keep playing it or not. You shouldn't play it to completion before deciding it whether you like or not, obviously. That's why I said it matters to be sincere and sensible about your intention to use the infringing copy exclusively as a demo. In fact, if I recall correctly, EA made it semi-official with Mirror's Edge, by allowing supposedly pirated copies to run for a short while before grinding to a halt and telling you to make a legal purchase.
Whether that's what Koki does or not, I don't know. But the argument as he presented it, while still apologetic towards a justifiably illegal practice, is not inherently flawed from a "moral" or rational standpoint.
Also, while we're at it, software
theft is a an altogether different thing. Please use "copyright infringement" or "piracy", for the sake of clarity.
Quote Posted by Matthew
So's publicly trying to defend piracy, but hey.
We're heading into muddy waters there. Does, rationally, not legally, infringing copyright for the purpose of partial, informative usage, equate the infringement for the purpose of full end-usage? Legally, of course, I'm assuming it's all under the same category, as I doubt there's a proper way to prove ulterior usage intentions, but think of it outside of the scope of a court.
Matthew on 9/10/2009 at 15:45
Hard for a lawyer to do that. :p
The problem is (and I'm not saying Koki is doing this at all, by the way) it's very easy to say, 'oh well I wouldn't have bought it anyway' but have played 80, 90% of it by that point. I know myself - I was a pirate on the Amiga scene until a chance encounter with a virus-laden copy made me swear off cracked games from then on.
Ostriig on 9/10/2009 at 16:06
Yes indeed, that is often the case with a lot of people (or even straight out "play it, like it, and never pay for it" piracy) and it's why I agree that it's a reasonably outlawed practice. All I'm saying, however, is that in the off-chance that you're one of the fair people who genuinely stick to their claimed intent, you're not in the "moral wrong".
Koki on 9/10/2009 at 16:14
Quote Posted by Ostriig
And that means that you play it for, I don't know, half an hour, one hour, as long as an actual demo for it would take and then you make a decision to either buy and keep playing it or not. You shouldn't play it to completion before deciding it whether you like or not, obviously.
Okay, I will ask: Why?
But understand - this is your Christmas present.
Ostriig on 9/10/2009 at 16:48
Wait... are you serious, Kokes? Are you asking me why you should limit your use of the torrent to just that of a demo, when you yourself justified resorting to it in the absence of said demo? You try the shoes on and take a few steps in the store, you don't go wearing them for two years until their soles crack up and then decide you didn't like them.
Or are you confusing December 25th with April 1st?
Aerothorn on 9/10/2009 at 18:47
I think Koki already knows the answer to this, but here goes:
You (Koki) have a few incentives (this is horribly simplifying things, but assuming you actually want to listen instead of nit-picking the argument, you'll know what I mean)
1. Play games you enjoy
2. Save money
If you play an hour and decide you want to play more, than Incentive 1 will likely override Incentive 2, and you will play the game.
If you play through the whole game first, the incentive to play the rest of the game is gone; you've already done so.
In other words, playing the game to completion reduces your chance of purchase. I know there's a lot of games that I've sunk good hours into and decided, in the end, weren't so hot (most Bioware games, to be relevant to the topic). But you're not funding a spiritual experience; you're funding the man-hours that went into producing content. Basically, you're paying for the hours of gameplay, and once you've used 50 hours of the game, your final opinion of it is completely irrelevant as far as paying for what you've consumed.
Also, if a game isn't good, why the heck would you pay it to completion anyway? If a game is compelling enough to finish, then it's presumably "good" enough to buy.
june gloom on 9/10/2009 at 19:09
I'm a mixture of "warez now, buy later" and instabuy. There are some games that I will pay for no matter what- Valve games fall into this category, and of course I preordered both Fallout 3 and Fallout 3 GOTY. Other games I either ignore, or I warez. I keep a short "guilt list" of games (which games, I'm keeping to myself) that I fully intend to buy once I actually have a steady income- and when steady income means a few extra dollars, I will buy one of those games and cross them off from the list. For those of you who say "well dethtoll, you've already played them to completion, I don't believe you have any incentive or desire to pay for them!" I have only one thing to say: some of them have already been crossed off. I'm keeping true to my word as best I can.
I'm not afraid to admit that when I was younger and didn't have as much money, my copies of Thief Gold, Thief 2 and System Shock 2 were all ISOs. These predated my list, by the way. I've since bought quality, first-run copies of all three, but I kept the ISOs to keep my investments safe (especially the $80 I spent on SS2- that grinding disk-check makes my balls retreat into my lungs.)
And yeah, there's some games I'm just not going to buy, and am grateful to bittorrent for showing me how shitty they really were.
Koki on 9/10/2009 at 19:30
Quote Posted by Ostriig
You
try the shoes on and take a few steps in the store, you don't go wearing them for two years until their soles crack up and then decide you didn't like them.
What a waste of Christmas.
Yeah, well, cool example. Too bad shoes last for two years, and don't change with use. Games last for ~10 hours(nowodays) and can change quite drastically. You say I should only play a demo lenght? When I buy a game based on a demo, I'm ALREADY giving the devs benefit of the doubt - that the rest of the game will be just as good, if not better. To give you an example you would understand: Let's say you play a demo of Halo. You escape the ship, land on Halo, drive a Warthog, demo ends. FUCKAWESUM. You buy the game - lol, Library. If only you knew!
So I don't know what your argument is, other than "This moral high ground adds +5 to my agility".
