Starker on 2/2/2020 at 05:04
I don't think they will have anything approaching RPG levels of grind, but upgrading your health, armor, and ammo capacity seems really out of place in the first place in a Doom game. At one point in the Giant Bomb video when they show the new wossname challenge, they talk about how there was a tooltip suggesting the player come back when they have gotten more upgrades. Having to upgrade yourself into beating a challenge is not really what Doom has ever been about.
Also, while this one system has 12 upgrade points, it seems there is also some sort of a long game where it takes a while to gather all the combat points and unlock all the things in your home base. And it does seem the maps are meant to be revisited over and over again. I'll be happy if that's only multiplayer nonsense, cause I've basically given up on Doom multiplayer at this point, but why does it have to be in the single player game and affect the level and game design?
To be fair, Doom is not the first FPS of its kind doing this. Shadow Warrior also had all kinds of upgrades to what I thought was a detriment to the game.
Sulphur on 2/2/2020 at 06:03
Well, I didn't mind the upgrade orbs last time. The combat encounter gauge is from the first game. The change seems to be where you'd search for upgrade drones in 2016, in Eternal you earn upgrade parts through encounters - which means you get to upgrade by killing stuff instead of searching for drones hidden in inconvenient places.
As far as unlocking stuff at the home base is concerned, we'll have to see. What I saw was those big batteries you collect unlock areas back at the hub - I think it's fair to say the game would lead you to essential unlocks through the, er, story, while if there's anything optional, it will remain optional.
Look, if the game becomes a Ubisoft-style map trudgefest, I'll have harsh words for it. As of right now, I'm seeing an evolution of what came before. If it really turns out as some sort of grindy behemoth that makes you rinse areas multiple times just to get on with the campaign, they can fuck off; but we'll need more concrete data before we can evaluate that.
Starker on 2/2/2020 at 09:34
Except some of the combat encounters are hidden, so you still get to upgrade stuff by searching for combat encounters hidden in inconvenient places.
I'm not saying the game is at the point of a Ubisoft-style collectathon yet, necessarily. But at the very least it is an evolution of stuff I already disliked in the first game. And all the previews seem to say that there is a ton of stuff to find and unlock and upgrade, so I don't think I'm unduly concerned.
What it boils down for me is this -- when it comes to a simple visceral shooter like Doom, I don't want to spend time thinking about whether I should put points in health or increase my ammo limit, I don't want to spend time doing platforming puzzles, and I don't want to revisit locations just to scour the map for what I have missed or to retread old ground to get to the one area I wasn't able to reach previously. In limited amounts or in isolation, it might be fine, but here it's just one thing on top of the other and a lot of it seems excessive and superfluous for a game as based on mastering player skill as Doom is. For example, there's a perk that reduces glory kill time. Why wouldn't I want to have glory kills be already as fast and as little gameplay flow interrupting as possible? Why do I have to upgrade gameplay systems into being less annoying or my character into not being hampered by low ammo capacity?
Sulphur on 2/2/2020 at 12:55
The Glory Kill time perk was also in Doom 2016. To me, this sounds like if you had issues with Doom 2016, they're not going to be made better here. I liked it just fine, so I'm not particularly bothered about things like that. The core experience is fast and visceral, and plays faster than the original Doom - as long as that's preserved, it's gravy.
Starker on 2/2/2020 at 15:00
Um, that's what I've been telling you. Stuff like rune mastery that forces you to do x amount of stuff to get the upgrade just fundamentally rubs me the wrong way in a game like Doom. It's needless busywork at best. And, like I said in the beginning, it's not just the upgrades, but also the climbable walls and punch blocks and all the other stuff that feels very much out of place.
And it only gets exacerbated in further playthroughs. When I picked up the reboot, at first I was very impressed how much of the original still seemed to be in there. In fact, I unabashedly praised it here at the time. When I put it down, though, I knew a second playthrough wasn't in the cards, in no small part because the game feel at the end and at the beginning was so different and I really didn't care for having to get all the stuff again.
Sulphur on 2/2/2020 at 17:03
Yeah, I thought you were okay with 2016, but the retroactive dissatisfaction wasn't obvious. Can't expect a sequel to it is to not expand on those ideas, right? Might as well skip it if you weren't happy where they went, because out of the two kinds of sequels, this one from all appearances goes the route of 'the same, but more'. More like Doom: Eterna-notagain-al, eh.
froghawk on 2/2/2020 at 17:46
Imo the upgrades did hurt 2016 a bit, since I really didn't find the early stages of the game to be all that fun. It was only once it really kicked into gear later that it became a blast. And I know a lot of people felt the later levels were weaker and less open, but I really felt the opposite - the front end of the game was a bit dull and padded.
Starker on 15/2/2020 at 07:14
Some more gameplay of the combat:
[video=youtube;-CeyUE4VC54]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CeyUE4VC54[/video]
The guy makes a point in the video about glory kills being a much needed breather that allow you to think and survey the situation, though the last time I found that they interrupted the flow for me more than they helped. Anyway, at least it looks like the combat will keep you more on your toes and moving around than the last instalment of the reboot and there are tougher and more deadly enemies as well.
Starker on 15/2/2020 at 08:31
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Yeah, I thought you were okay with 2016, but the retroactive dissatisfaction wasn't obvious. Can't expect a sequel to it is to not expand on those ideas, right? Might as well skip it if you weren't happy where they went, because out of the two kinds of sequels, this one from all appearances goes the route of 'the same, but more'. More like Doom: Eterna-notagain-al, eh.
It's not like I hated the reboot. I thought it was a solid 8/10 game. Not great, but not terrible by any means. Though the reboot did catch me off guard in many ways. I had expected them to screw it up in a big way, especially after Doom 3 and after hearing all those things about the development and seeing that ridiculous box art. So them keeping cutscene bullshit at a minimum and the game being fast-paced and more focused on arenas and verticality than linear corridors was a really pleasant surprise. But I also think some things outstayed their welcome and became minor annoyances by the end of the game. And the new game seems to have more of both some of the old things that I got tired of (eg. glory kills, cutscenes, upgrades...) as well as some new things that I really don't like the look of (eg. platforming sections, puzzles, home decorating...).
Anyway, me not being happy with the direction a game takes or not liking an aspect of it doesn't mean I will necessarily have to skip it. I disliked the boss fights and quite a few other things about the new Deus Ex games and I still played them. And, like I said, it's not like fast-paced shooters grow on trees.
Nameless Voice on 20/3/2020 at 21:21
So, this is out today.
Is anyone playing it, and what's the verdict?
Tempted to get it, but I think I'll wait for a few reviews first.
Also kind of put off by it apparently needing a third-party account ... to play singleplayer.