cyclops1101 on 8/8/2007 at 17:09
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Nobody actually wants sequels. What we want is an impossible combination of "exactly the same" and "totally different"
QUOTE]
Like the James Bond Movies, Same charactor different stories.
Cant they do this with Thief?
Gingerbread Man on 8/8/2007 at 17:17
We do. They're called FMs.
I suppose, to clarify, that there's usually plenty of room for fans to explore the existing canon and (if you're ambitious) extend it somewhat. But the explorations and extensions are unofficial, personal, and highly interpretive. For an example, see how well the Star Wars extended universe plays with Star Wars fans... then look at how Jar Jar Binks plays with Star Wars fans. Or something.
My greater point had to do with the inevitable disappointment of "official" sequels.
Zillameth on 8/8/2007 at 17:34
Gingerbread Man, you're right in many aspects. It's true - a sequel never lives to the original's reputation. The more time passes, the bigger the gap. But a sequel can always make a reputation of its own.
Frankly, while I like TDP and TMA (heck, even TDS isn't that bad), there are some details I don't like about them. I've just finished playing through TMA a few days ago. It's my favourite part, but man, all the frustration... good thing I live alone now, because I swore loudly almost every time I tried to climb somewhere with a rope arrow. There's so much room for improvement.
I'd like Thief 4 not because I want more of the same. I'd like Thief 4, because I want something better, and I know it's possible.
Of course, I wouldn't mind a good game inspired by Thief either, no problem.
[Actually, when I said I was a game developer in another thread, it was one part reality, two parts bragging, and three parts dreaming. I have this directory on my HDD full of notes on a third person sneaker with some RPG elements and an expanded theme of exploration in a fantasy space-travel setting. One day I'll convince a boss of mine to make it, and I'll become famous, you'll see. :joke: ]
Jah on 8/8/2007 at 19:13
Quote Posted by cyclops1101
If we dont make clear what we want then chances are we will never get it - If we work for what we want then chances are the probability of getting it will vastly increase. Like the peace comment!!
I've signed petitions because I figured there's no harm in doing so, and there's probably no harm in e-mailing Eidos, either. But I'm definitely not holding my breath waiting for peace negotiations to begin, and I don't think anyone should hold their breath with Thief 4, either. It's good to be optimistic, but one shouldn't forget the realities.
And I agree with Gingerbread Man about the situation with a potential Thief 4 being completely different from our first Thief experiences. Dreaming about Thief 4 is a bit like dreaming about your favorite band who split years ago having a reunion and releasing a new album. Deep inside, you want to believe that they could create something as magical as the old classics, but realistically speaking, it's far more likely that the new album would be a disappointment, if only because of the enormous expectations ("exactly the same" and "totally different" at the same time). In such situations, it might be better to stick to dreaming.
jtr7 on 8/8/2007 at 19:41
The lack of a fourth installment isn't the fans' fault. We've spent our money, and many of us more than once. We've spread the word around in appropriate social circles about how much we enjoy the Thief Universe and how cool and different it is. The fan-made T2X was featured in magazines and put out on CD's with magazines. Thief is mentioned in articles by Thief fans and witers who understand its place in the history of gaming. We have given way more than our fair share of input and suggestions to the different entities that have had a part to play. We've signed petitions. There's quite a bit I'm leaving out.
The lack of a Thief 4 is not our fault. Thank you.
Zillameth on 8/8/2007 at 19:46
The game being good or bad is one thing, and the player's perception of the fact is another.
You know, it's in large part a problem of fan's mentality. That's why I'm never a fan of anything. Never. The excitement is pleasant, and devotion is a great thing to have (especially when it fruits with so many fine FMs to play!), but then the enthusiasm turns into worship, and "communion with the opus" becomes a ritual. Fans are like Hammerites in that they don't care if you're a good person, they don't care if you're useful, they only care if you know all the tenets (and don't even think about making your own, you heretic!). When you reach this stage, you start to like something so much you forget why you liked it in the first place.
No offence. It's just that fans care too much. So much, in fact, that they hurt themselves, and sometimes those around them. I once got flamed by a whole newsgroup of console owners, because in a crossposted thread about Halo I said I didn't like the demo of the PC version.
Oskar Cruo on 9/8/2007 at 08:50
Simply: yes, if it's well made. :erg:
Dia on 9/8/2007 at 14:01
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Everyone always wants a sequel to the thing they like. Movie, album, tv show, game... when the first one or two are great fans obviously want more.
I'm still waiting for a sequel to Serenity or a revival of Firefly with all new episodes. :(
(And no, I'm not holding my breath.)
Quote Posted by cyclops1101
If we dont make clear what we want then chances are we will never get it - If we work for what we want then chances are the probability of getting it will vastly increase.
Highly doubtful. Eidos is a corporation and corporations are all about profit. Bottom line: TDS was a flop financially.
Quote Posted by cyclops1101
As for Eidos losing money, at least they can see where they have gone wrong and proceed with more clarity - Like episodic downloads or sticking to
the reason why Thief 1+2 were such a success.
Just the fact that Eidos lost money on TDS would be enough to discourage them from trying again. That's just how it works in the business world.
Quote Posted by cyclops1101
Plus they will make some money regardless of whether they drew even or not, its not like they cant take the risk - risk=reward/failure
'Some' money doesn't even equate with big businesses. If the game didn't make a profit then they're not going to bother - period.
Quote Posted by cyclops1101
The only thing that will make them decide to do it is if their marketing team makes a strong business case
Wrong. It'll be their number crunchers who make that decision and guess what those number crunchers are going to be taking into consideration. Yep; how well or poorly the last Thief game they produced did on the market. Face it; Eidos took a serious beating financially with TDS and as was said before, they're not going to set themselves up for another failure. The marketing team only comes into play in considering the most popular types of games (and gamer demographics) and face it; when you consider all the other types of games & gamers out there, Thief fans are just a little blip on the radar.
There's just not enough of us to make a difference (market-wise) to a big corporation like Eidos. Regardless of how many petitions we sign & send to them, it'll pretty much end up being the same names over and over again. We're just too few. :(
If they ever do release another Thief-style game, it'll probably be geared more to gamers who like shooters. considering that there's already a glut on the market for RPGs and MMORPGs.
Wanting and getting are two completely different things.
(I will now rename myself Dia-the-Doomsayer.) :p
Zillameth on 9/8/2007 at 14:38
Quote Posted by Dia
I'm still waiting for a sequel to Serenity or a revival of Firefly with all new episodes. :(
Take my gold, take my eye, take me where I cannot hide,
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the streets from me... ;)
Quote:
(And no, I'm not holding my breath.)
Good. ;) I'm afraid Firefly would turn into soap opera in third, maybe fourth season at best. Whedon knows how to build stories, but he doesn't know how to conclude them.
Quote:
Highly doubtful. Eidos is a corporation and corporations are all about profit. Bottom line: TDS was a flop financially.
In my opinion it's mostly a matter of how far sighted a person or institution is. TDS didn't make money for a reason. Now they can give up, or they can try to find the reasons of their failure.
I hate how most sales people tend to share that corporate "it won't sell" mentality. It's a poor excuse for their own incompetence. There is really no "it won't sell", there is only "I don't know how to sell it".
[Don't let me start ranting about incompetent executives and sales people. I could go on for hours.]
Dia on 9/8/2007 at 19:42
Quote Posted by Zillameth
Take my gold, take my eye, take me where I cannot hide,
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the streets from me... ;)
Clever .... very clever. ;) :cheeky:
Quote Posted by Zillameth
In my opinion it's mostly a matter of how far sighted a person or institution is. TDS didn't make money for a reason. Now they can give up, or they can try to find the reasons of their failure.
I think the fact that sales for TDS were Godawful from the get go (there just aren't enough of us taffers out there and one can only buy so many copies of TDS ya know :erg: )
before any Thief fans had a good chance to pick it apart and spread the word. The overall low sales figures would be a major deterrent for Eidos in even contemplating reasons why the game didn't sell. They probably just chalked it up as a write-off and decided there just wasn't a lucrative enough market for Thief games anymore (or at all).
