Do you think the 90s were the "golden age" of video games?

Jason Moyer on 17/12/2015 at 08:59

I think it would be interesting to have a discussion about the effect that massive budgets in AAA gaming and the need to recoup large financial investments has had on the product (spoiler: like every other media, it's all about cashing in on IP). I'm not sure this is really the thread to have that discussion in, though.

I stand by my assertion that, regardless of whether or not the best games ever made came out in the 90's, the golden age by any reasonable definition would have been the arcade boom, second console generation, and widespread availability of 8-bit computers that all roughly coincided with each other in the late 70's and early 80's. Not to forget the primitive handheld games that became popular at that time pre-Gameboy. You've got the massive popularity of arcades (and the ubiquitousness of arcade games from bars to grocery stores to restaurants), the Atari 2600, the Colecovision, the Commodore 64, the Atari 800, the Apple ][, and portable LCD games. Videogames were massively commercially successful for the first time and the first generation of hardcore gamers was being made (not just with videogames, but the sudden popularity of tabletop roleplaying).

GMDX Dev on 17/12/2015 at 09:23

Quote Posted by Manwe

I think it's actually a good thing. For example in a stealth game, not having to think about carefully landing precisely where your enemy is and pressing the attack button at the exact moment you land on him (Tenchu), actually frees your brain (and your fingers) to focus on what's really important, namely the strategic approach to stealth.

So you'd prefer if Dishonored had auto takedowns? Dishonored worked the same way as Tenchu for takedowns and it is a much more satisfying way. Pressing a few buttons to perform highly complex actions is mindless enough as it is, we don't need any dumbing down of this sort.

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That you like this type of gameplay is fine, you're allowed to. But then I'd say you liked Tenchu for the wrong reasons. The fact that the series descended into forgettable shovelware, and died a slow painful death, should maybe give you a hint.

It descended into shovelware because From Software (makers of Dark Souls) for whatever reason couldn't make a good Tenchu game for shit. It was Acquire (original Tenchu dev team) that nailed it. The gameplay was basic player-controlled stealth and platforming. Enjoyable stuff, and could have been a legendary series had it not devolved into dumbed down shovelware.
Dishonored shares a lot in common with classic Tenchu gameplay-wise, actually, so saying that type of gameplay has no place today is already proven false.

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As for the immersive sim genre, it's never been a very prolific genre to begin with, but now they're pretty much everywhere. They might not be very good, or to your liking, but they're there. And really Dishonored alone is worth ten of those. Surely you didn't miss the fact that it was commercially successful and that a sequel was incoming? Surely you didn't miss the Underworld Ascendant kickstarter and the announcement for System Shock 3? Surely those are things to get excited about?

Dishonored, while good, did not scratch the particular itch. It was more like Thief than the others. As I said, when I think Immersive Sim I think of LGS' original vision: the likes of Ultima Underworld. Those are the type I am deeply in love with.
As for Underworld Ascendant and System Shock 3...I have waited a long, long time to see such an announcement. I am very skeptical though. They don't have enough funds, they are using Unity, they have proposed things like co-op with great interest. We'll have to wait and see.

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Yes, games have been streamlined and dumbed-down, oftentimes to ridiculous extent. But some of that streamlining is sometimes for the better. You'd realize that if you let go of your preconceptions and actually tried to look at these games in a truly objective manner. I already said it, but I used to be like you, thinking that all modern gaming was shit. Because of that I missed on a lot of great games and experiences. It's not an objective point of view, it's a very obstinate and stubborn one. You remind me of Rorschach in Watchmen, not wanting to compromise even in the face of Armageddon. Well it's not fucking Armageddon, it's just gaming for fuck's sake.

You have me figured wrong. I consider myself someone with an eye for game design. I like to think I do look at things objectively. See the talk on objective markers. I broke down all the relevant points and mentioned that they can have their place in open world games.
The vast majority of the streamlining though is just for the money, and that's objective.

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In conclusion: Yes, the AAA industry is mostly crap. Yes, games have been streamlined and dumbed-down, oftentimes to ridiculous extent.

Hurrah. I can now rest easy among the philistines.

henke on 17/12/2015 at 09:54

Quote Posted by GMDX Dev

I can now rest easy among the philistines.

Is this all part of the PR tour for your upcoming mod?

GMDX Dev on 17/12/2015 at 10:03

I know that's a joke, but no, actually. I'm just foolishly wasting time here with you lot (hey, I'm having fun) instead of actually doing much marketing. I'm not too bothered. I've just about given up getting this out to the people. I'm one man, and the mod is very LGS-inspired, so my reach is seemingly limited.
If you'd like to see this elitism translated into game design I'd strongly recommend checking the mod out though. From my POV I have took one of the greatest games of all time, fixed many, many of its flaws, and made it deeper and more fulfilling. Like I said, I wanted to remind how it's done. I think you'll be impressed with the results. I do sometimes regret it though because I've put a shitload of work into it to little personal benefit (money etc), but it has been a great learning experience at least.

Here's a link which will fill in those curious: (http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/news/gmdx-v80-delayed)

Malf on 17/12/2015 at 10:38

Ah, that thread explains a lot.

I had no idea who you were or what the hell GMDX is, and as far as I was concerned, you were just another opinion on the internet.
I see a lot of positive reinforcement of your work in that thread, and I can see how that would make you believe that maybe your opinion is more valuable than other people's. After all, all those folks on Reddit love your work, how could you possibly be wrong?

Hubris is a powerful force.

GMDX Dev on 17/12/2015 at 10:45

Changed the link by the way. And no, my work is not particularly relevant to what I have been arguing. I am just another internet goer, but I laid down the facts more than I did opinions. Like I said, I don't believe there is much subjectivity to the state of the industry at all and it is baffling to me that some believe otherwise. We've lost a lot, objectively.

heywood on 17/12/2015 at 10:58

I think this thread has run its course. No new points have been raised in the last several pages.

GMDX Dev has strong opinions for sure. And he's arrogant. But he has been civil and hasn't called anyone names. The rest of you lot are acting like a bunch of whiny children with bruised egos, like GMDX Dev is some sort of playground bully who's picking on you. Grow up.

icemann on 17/12/2015 at 11:06

*wonders if dethtoll and GMDX are one and the same person*

GMDX Dev on 17/12/2015 at 11:09

Quote Posted by heywood

Thank you. I have been a bit of an arrogant ass and I apologize for that, but this is a subject I've put far too much time into discussing, analyzing and even being upset by over the years to be told it's all fine and dandy.

PigLick on 17/12/2015 at 11:34

err he has called people names? faetal a douchebag for one. Anyway, I for one would welcome the return of the dethman, even though we havent always been on great terms personally.