faetal on 12/12/2015 at 16:49
It's ok, we're still jamming ;)
PigLick on 12/12/2015 at 17:06
Hell yeh :)
This has actually been a pretty good discussion thread, enjoyed reading it even though it has now gone a bit off track from the original premise. In fact you could almost rename it as "What constitutes a so called Goldenage?"
froghawk on 12/12/2015 at 17:17
Quote Posted by faetal
Yep. By the time rock music arrived, everybody had a clear idea of what music was - it's was 100% burned in, we just had different ways to achieve it and broaden the palette. I think games haven't even finished becoming what they can be yet. There are plenty of disruptive innovations yet to be made I think. Also, I think games are so much more complex a medium as they essentially combine all of the facets of cinema, music and literature into something different and that something different is more or less defined as being interactive. I think gaming will be a defining medium in the next 50 years, maybe even longer.
Yeah, exactly. Gaming is such a complex medium that it's not at all surprising that it hasn't hit its stride in 35 years. It's hard as hell to create a great work of art when you're just focusing on one medium - for example, if you're a rock artist today in the DIY age, you have to be good at writing music, good at writing lyrics, good at playing an instrument (or more than one), good at singing, good at recording and getting tones, good at mixing, good at promotion, etc. It's a huge skill set. Game music requires most of those skills if it's going to be done at a high level, and that's just one small aspect of making a game. So you've got all of the challenges of making good art, writing a good script, making a good soundtrack, plus a ton of technical coding challenges, plus the challenge of trying to integrate all of that stuff into a singular, coherent entity where all of the elements complement each other. That's a daunting task!
PigLick on 12/12/2015 at 17:26
Good point, but I think you overextend the whole DIY thing. You could be a great singer, but outsource the other stuff, the writing, production and still do well. Kinda like the games industry I guess. Music is a passive experience, when you consume it. There is no interaction unlike games.
froghawk on 12/12/2015 at 18:19
That's my profession, so I am certainly not overextending. If anything, I'm underrepresenting it, since very few musicians I know can make enough money off of that alone. Lots of them teach, I transcribe music and make sheet music for people, etc. Outsourcing takes money, and creative generally don't make much money - outsourcing is a luxury of success.
PigLick on 12/12/2015 at 18:42
The funny thing is its also my profession. I am a very experienced and well trained musician, have been working as one for the last 20 odd years, I play guitar, bass, piano and drums, I also know my way around computers regarding music. I have taught music since around 1998. Quite a few of my muso friends make a very decent living off gigging and recording alone. The fact they are incredible players helps. So thats my credentials I guess ;)
As regards to gaming music, not sure. It was always something I wanted to get into but just never had the opportunity.
Outsourcing stuff? If you have a network of musicians and such, these things can happen.
but...this is probly a discussion for another thread so lets return to goldenage talk
froghawk on 12/12/2015 at 20:20
Right on man, that's awesome. I think this is a difference of mindset caused by a generational gaps. Musicians like me in their mid-20s or early 30s who grew uo with home recording technology and a terrible economy see this stuff pretty differently from musicians who got their start a decade or more earlier. I have a pretty wide network of musicians of all ages and many genres, and none of the ones my age are making a living from recording and gigging alone unless they're just pursuing cover bands and wedding bands. It's just not possible anymore - the times have changed too much for newer musicians to break into it and make money that way. Even the bands I know who are quite successful are barely taking anything home after it's divided among the whole crew, label, etc. Everyone has to have a day job or a patron.
I made a record the traditional way, going into a studio, hiring a publicist, outsourcing everything, and there's no way I can ever afford to do that again. I found that it was actually cheaper to buy a high end home studio than to make another record at a pro studio. The more skills you pick up, the more money you save. And of course I trade services with other musicians all the time, but that's generally not going to get you a free publicist or studio time.
I actually think this discussion is somewhat relevant, because the way games have changed is largely a result of the way technology and the economy have changed - the same factors creating the aforementioned generation gap.
Anyway, I'd be happy to trade records some time if you want.
(
http://thegabrielconstruct.com)
GMDX Dev on 12/12/2015 at 21:23
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
What span of years do you describe as this "mindless age"?
The timeline was given early on in the discussion: 2006/2007 - ongoing. A considerable drop in gameplay standards can be given objectively. The success of Bioshock despite shitting all over a wide variety of gameplay conventions serves as a prime example.
Again, nothing was perfect before. If it were Looking Glass wouldn't have fell and simplified mediocrity like Halo would not have been a wild success, but they were exceptions to the rule. Successful games were usually worthy of success, featured multi-layered, engaging gameplay and pushed forward in some way, even if LG were way ahead of the curve in many respects the games stealing all the spotlight had many qualities of their own, especially in gameplay.
Nameless Voice on 12/12/2015 at 21:39
Controllers and couch gaming (e.g. output to a TV) have a lot to answer for in terms of bad control schemes and horrible (over-sized for distance viewing) UIs. I don't think many will argue about those points.
Are you saying that recent years have been mindless because the most popular games have been fairly mindless, or because there have only been mindless games made in that time?
The first I will agree to somewhat. As others have said, it's because games are more of a business now, and they like to "play it safe" and try to appeal to the broadest range of people as possible, so they make the games accessible to the level of insulting players' intelligence. But those are the hugely hyped, big-budget games, so a lot of people try them out.
The second I will strongly disagree with; since the start of 2006, we've had some truly awesome games (as I mentioned in my list very early in this thread.)
Of course, that's my opinion of awesome games, and many are likely to disagree. Some of them have been very popular, though.
To be fair, I do think there have been sightly fewer awesome games in the last few years, and certainly a larger junk-to-awesome ratio than before. But there's also so many games made recently that I'm sure I have missed many great ones.
GMDX Dev on 12/12/2015 at 22:24
Hey, you know that we will probably never agree on such things after our Tomb Raider reboot discussion. You seemingly took no issue with its many considerably mindless gameplay elements.
Quote:
The second I will strongly disagree with; since the start of 2006, we've had some truly awesome games (as I mentioned in my list very early in this thread.)
Of course, that's my opinion of awesome games, and many are likely to disagree. Some of them have been very popular, though.
The second indeed. My measurement of awesome is highly determined by whether or not the gameplay is mindless. Whether a game is simple or complex, its gameplay should involve & engage the player, if not don't bother including gameplay at all. Those initial years we saw highly successful games that shat all over gameplay conventions: Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Kane & Lynch and such. It continues to this day.
