froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 16:48
Or to put it a different way, there has never been a pop art/high art division in games like there is in literature, film, and music.
Arguably, this is a good thing - I think that the division is stupid and creates a lot of purposeless elitism and the two worlds need to be less scared of each other.
But the problem with games is that literally all of them fall into pop art territory and never really aim to be high art (or even use elements of it). Which is understandable - development costs are very high and publishers want something marketable. But it is holding gaming back.
froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 16:58
And one more point on the soundtracks - I'm not saying that I don't enjoy some game music - I do, especially Akira Yamaoka and Alex Brandon. But I enjoy them mainly for the nostalgia invoked for the game itself, rather than on their own terms - they've been given a context they can't be divorced from. I don't think I would have any interest in this music if it had come out in some other form, and I suspect that's the case for most gamers - if the game hadn't exposed you to the music for hours and helped set up a world that it takes you back to, you probably wouldn't have any attachment to it on its own terms. And that largely goes for film soundtracks as well. You watch Inception - Hans Zimmer's soundtrack complements the epic feel of the film quite nicely. On its own, it's cheesy, simplistic and cliched, and just sounds like another Zimmer soundtrack. And that SS2 Med/Sci music is another great example - it's actually quite generic outside of the context of the game.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 17:02
Quote Posted by zacharias
To quote myself, '
With player agency the author gives up total control of the form the experience will take. It is a trade off.' Control of the form was traditionally the thing an artist had complete control over. This is necessarily given up to some degree with an interactive medium. If you are a mod author, you must have experienced this at least in part(?)
Hence in practice games aren't some uber medum. Like every other medium, they have strengths and weaknesses..
.
It's only a trade off as you give the player more & more agency. Everyone experiences Dark Souls without too many differences (despite offering reasonable freedom), for example. Also, player agency is precisely the art Looking glass were trying to create, its what they have stressed time and time again, so what's to trade if that was their intention? Why is ultimate control over the experience a requirement to qualify?
Anyhow, movie makers and such don't have full control over how consumers experience their works either as the consumer's environment & interpretation of the work is not absolute. For every one movie critic that understands the movie's true intentions, there's a game journalist that played the game as the developers intended?
froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 17:11
I don't think anyone said ultimate control is necessary for something to qualify as high art. Plenty of high art has deterministic elements - just look at aleatory music, improvised music, experimental improv theater, etc. But that doesn't make games high art, since they're still consistently recycling pop art tropes.
Has any game really dared to make a strong social or political statement? Besides MGS, which mixed in plenty of camp and action movie stuff along the way, I can't think of anything. There certainly hasn't been a game with commentary as sweeping as The Wire. Because, for some reason, other media are allowed to be more than just entertainment and prioritize a message or personal expression over the entertainment aspect, while games are still trapped being entertainment first and foremost. That's what holds them back. They can't be high art because they're not allowed to make a bigger statement for the most part, regardless of whether that statement is personal, political, social, or simply about breaking the boundaries of art. Gaming is still seen as a diversion. Indie games have certainly transcended this, but not so much with AAA titles, including the ones we all adore.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 17:19
Quote Posted by froghawk
Has any game really dared to make a strong social or political statement? Besides MGS, which mixed in plenty of camp and action movie stuff along the way, I can't think of anything.
Deus Ex.
froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 17:20
Deus Ex is my favorite game because I think it came very close to that in a lot of ways - but there are still so many obvious limitations.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 17:21
Such as? I don't think any story has left an impact quite like Deus Ex's did, for me. It's all too relevant in many ways.
froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 17:30
The story is great pop art in the sense of classic sci fi. It's got the action/spy movie setup - new super soldier is working for a government agency, etc. It's playing with a lot of tropes, and while it's using them to make statements, at the end of the day it's still trying first and foremost to entertain by telling a story about a nanoaugmented super soldier who turns his back on the agency he works for and ends up in area 51, killing or sneaking past lots of baddies on the way - pure pop art territory. All of the game's individual elements are written or designed in a pop art style. And there's nothing wrong with that. Pop art can make a statement too, and pop art can be great, but you're not doing it or anyone any favors by trying to claim it's high art.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 17:33
It goes far deeper than that quite frequently. It combines the best of both worlds :P
froghawk on 11/12/2015 at 17:36
Yes, clearly. All of the characters are deeply fleshed out entities with complex emotional arcs.
Really though, what do you think it borrows from high art?
