Gryzemuis on 3/6/2017 at 09:57
Co-op in Dark Souls is only for the good players.
The bad/new/sub-mediocre/slow/uninformed players will have ran out of humanity/effigies/embers long before they realize they can or should play all bosses in co-op mode. Also, if you don't know how to deal with all quests, then probably half the NPCs will not be summonable for the bosses.
The difficulty of Dark Souls is not in the lack of location-markers or quest-descriptions. The difficulty is that there is a steep learning curve. Both in strategy and execution. And if you don't get over the curve quickly, the game will introduce extra hurdles. Like bad players having to play with less health most of the time. Constant shortage of humanity/effigies/embers. If you don't know what you're doing you will probably invest your early upgrade materials in the wrong weapon (or wrong weapon-type): split-damage sounds nice, but is not. Dying often probably means losing souls and not leveling as fast. Etc.
Another proof that Dark Souls has "easy to learn, hard to mast" completely upside down is the NG+ mechanism. When I played DS3 first time, it took me ages to advance through the game. Some bosses were borderline impossible for me. Like Aldritch, Lothric Twins, Soul of Cinder, Nameless King. Especially because 3 out of those 4 didn't have an NPC summon. (I play DS3 in offline mode, I don't want to be invaded). Pontiff and Gundyr were only doable in under 10 tries because I could summon an NPC. DS3 was not an easy game for me.
But last few days I've played NG+, and I just started NG++. I am blasting through the game. It's not hard at all. Of course I know the areas, I know the bosses. And I have better gear. But even while considering that, NG+ and NG++ are severely under-tuned. Just too easy. I've one-shotted most bosses solo in NG+, including Aldritch, Gundyr and Dancer. But I even one-shotted Soul of Cinder and Nameless King solo this time. It was ridiculous. I'm sure I'm a little better than I was before I played DS3, but not that much. It's probably the gear and the high level. But in any case: it's the absolute opposite of extra challenge.
It strengthens my belief that the Dark Souls series have difficulty upside-down.
Thirith on 3/6/2017 at 10:34
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Co-op in Dark Souls is only for the good players.
The bad/new/sub-mediocre/slow/uninformed players will have ran out of humanity/effigies/embers long before they realize they can or should play all bosses in co-op mode. Also, if you don't know how to deal with all quests, then probably half the NPCs will not be summonable for the bosses.
IMO you're mixing two entirely different things here, namely how good a player you are and how informed you are. I've never been particularly good at any of the
Souls games, but I've been reasonably well informed, and this has made a huge difference with bosses. But just being informed did not make me a better player; I still died a hell of a lot, and even by the time I got to the final bosses of the games, I was mediocre at best.
Gryzemuis on 3/6/2017 at 14:16
You are partially right. But my point was: even if you are an informed player, if you die a lot, you are going to run out of Embers. And have a lower level because you missed out on souls (that you dropped twice). Being informed does help in a lot of games, especially RPGs. But with Dark Souls, knowing what to do might not be enough: you also need to be able to execute your strategy. Or else you can't even do the strategy, because you lack the levels, embers, gear, souls.
242 on 3/6/2017 at 14:48
I believe they do. Most people, like 80-95% play in easy modes if they are available. It has consequences -- generally degrading games difficulty, and for me, a way too easy gameplay on supposedly hardest difficulty can ruin experience. The latest example - RotTR.
Bucky Seifert on 3/6/2017 at 17:52
Quote Posted by 242
Most people, like 80-95% play in easy modes if they are available.
[video=youtube;6P40_kd-mS8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P40_kd-mS8[/video]
I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist :laff:
But I am curious where that information comes from.
Starker on 3/6/2017 at 18:38
Dark Souls has adaptable difficulty -- if things are too tough for you, you can always farm souls and humanity and upgrade materials to make things easier. It's an RPG, after all. A massive RPG, dozens of hours long.
The whole point of Dark Souls is to present a seemingly impossible challenge and then have you overcome it, make it seem easy, even, because you are constantly improving both your character and your skill at the game (which is not action game button mashing, but patience, observation, exploration). If you have an easy mode to make it less challenging, overcoming seemingly impossible odds becomes overcoming kind of tough but doable odds and you will be able to learn less, because you will die less. The lessons of Dark Souls are harsh, but crucial -- if you button mash, you risk your life. If button mashing becomes a valid strategy in easy mode, it's no longer teaching you as it should.
Also, it's a game about perseverance. It kind of undermines the message if you can select an easy mode instead.
Sulphur on 3/6/2017 at 19:19
Yes, arguably, an Easy mode for Dark Souls would make you worse at playing Dark Souls. But in reality, an Easy mode for Dark Souls would have to incorporate more hints and changes to make things more obvious, as the game's real barrier to entry is its abstruse nature, rather than the standard gaming mechanic of giving you more stamina/HP and reducing it for the NPCs with lower difficulty settings. Making things more obvious is exactly what would undermine the experience in the first place, since half of Dark Souls is those little moments where you figure out how to progress, right?
However: if someone wants to fumble their way to the end via an easy mode, why stop them? They may lose the meat of the experience but still know enough at the end to say, 'Hmm, I think I could play that better now since I know a few of the tricks to it.' No skin off your nose.
Starker on 3/6/2017 at 19:29
If that's all it was, sure. I'm not against explaining the mechanics better or giving some more hints, like perhaps place a few more developer messages. Hell, make it a part of the main game, even, rather than a separate mode.
Though I'd argue that Dark Souls is more about the journey than simply getting to the end. The difficulty is a part of the game that can't be cut away without cutting away some of what makes it Dark Souls.
Certainly, that is not to say that the difficulty is perfect in Dark Souls. I think there are lots of places where the game is too hard or too easy, personally. But there are tools available to adjust the difficulty in the game.
Starker on 3/6/2017 at 19:46
Quote Posted by Sulphur
However: if someone wants to fumble their way to the end via an easy mode, why stop them? They may lose the meat of the experience but still know enough at the end to say, 'Hmm, I think I could play that better now since I know a few of the tricks to it.' No skin off your nose.
But why enable them? Is it merely to try to appeal to a wider audience? Dark Souls is not meant to be fumbled through. Making an easier option available undercuts the point of the game being seemingly a tough challenge.
Dark Souls: Prepare to Select an Easy Mode edition.
Sulphur on 3/6/2017 at 19:55
Think of it as a 'discovery mode'. There's obviously more going on, and if the person wants to engage with it, they can. Else they can still explore if that's the real draw for them, and not the combat.
If there's one thing Dark Souls does superlatively (amongst the other things that it does just as well), it's the architectural design and sense of place. The last game that boasted of spaces that felt as realistically considered and designed as Dark Souls 1's environments was Ico, with its castle.
