Papy on 23/10/2008 at 06:36
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Crouching behind walls, hiding behind pillars works and like just a well.
I do agree that a "cover system" works much better for an FPS than a shadow system. It's certainly easier to use and, more importantly, don't slow down the shooting much while still adding a bit of depth. But saying that crouching behind walls works just as well is not true. A requirement for stealth gameplay is the ability to observe without being seen. If the only thing you do is hide, then this is not a stealth gameplay.
EvaUnit02 on 23/10/2008 at 07:12
Quote Posted by Papy
A requirement for stealth gameplay is the ability to observe without being seen. If the only thing you do is hide, then this is not a stealth gameplay.
I got by fine in Invisible War without the ability to lean. Guards in stealth games rarely dynamically change their patterns.
DDL on 23/10/2008 at 07:27
Ah, but the question is: would you have preferred to have the ability to lean, anyway?
It's perfectly possible to coast through original DX without leaning once, but that doesn't mean it's not nice to be able to regardless. :)
EvaUnit02 on 23/10/2008 at 08:58
Quote Posted by DDL
Ah, but the question is: would you have preferred to have the ability to lean, anyway?
Must definitely. Papy's point was correct, it just isn't absolute.
Papy on 26/10/2008 at 09:18
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
it just isn't absolute.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not talking about leaning but about shadows. If you hide behind a wall (without using the 3rd person view of the cover system), you can't see anything. You can't observe guards as the only thing you can see is the wall. If you can't observe then you can't plan your action... meaning this is not a stealth gameplay.
Manwe on 26/10/2008 at 11:22
I don't really understand your point at all guys, if you want to hide behind a wall you just crouch, if you want to take a peek around a corner you just lean. It was like that in thief, it was like that in deus ex, it's been like that in every single pc game ever made since and it works amazingly well.
Why would anyone want to dumb it down for a retarded cover system ? I can understand the need for such a system on consoles cause they have gamepads but on pc ?? Using a cover system takes the control of the character away from the player. Instead of fully controlling the movevements of your character you end up with a context sensitive button that does all the work for you. And no it's not faster to have to press a button to put your back against a wall to have the camera switch to third person so you can fucking move your character to the side of the wall so you can finally take a peek. It only lets you see all the "cool" movements your character can do (and it defeats the whole point of the first person perspective which is supposed to be immersive you know...).
And besides as soon as you have a cover system you end up with a gameplay similar to gears of war/rainbow six vegas where you have cover based shooting sequences everywhere. Those sequences work ok for a third person shooter but not for a game like Deus ex.
So to answer the question of this topic no FPSes with cover systems don't work (except on consoles) especially not for FPSes like Deus ex whose legacy comes from a game like thief.
EvaUnit02 on 26/10/2008 at 17:45
There's a huge difference between whether or not a system works and whether or not it's needed. The successful PC ports of FPS games designed for consoles such as the aforementioned R6: Vega series and QoS are proof can cover systems can work. What's more using the system is entirely optional if you can crouch.
DX3 will be a multiplatform game - likely with simultaneous or rather close launch dates. Stop living denial. No developer is going to feasibly build two fundamentally different versions of a game for hardware platforms with comparable specifications. At Best you may get different GUIs and a PC-suited menu navigation/input infrastructure, like with Bioshock.
Also can we please stop propagating that this bullshit myth that immersion is exclusive to a first person view? An opinion so obtuse that it approaches NMA proportions.
Manwe on 26/10/2008 at 18:43
I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound like I wasn't aware that DX3 would be dumbed down for the consoles. I'm perfectly aware of it, I'm just saying it's wrong and it sucks, and I don't understand why anyone on this board would think a cover based system is a good idea for this game (or for FPSes in general which was the topic of this thread).
Also I never said that only first person games were immersive, I just think that overall they're more immersive than third person games. Of course it really depends on the kind of game you're making, I wouldn't say halo is more immersive than gears of war just because it's in first person. Some games just aren't intended to be immersive. But anytime I've played a third person game that was trying to be immersive I always thought it would work better as a first person game (like silent hill or resident evil, I have yet to try dead space maybe that will work).
So in my opinion a game like deus ex should be in first person perspective and switching to third person will probably break the immersion for me. And I know they will do exactly that, I can just hope that they include leaning in the pc version and make the cover system optional. But even so I'm pretty sure we'll have to use the cover system since the whole gameplay will be designed around it.
Kalit on 31/10/2008 at 05:23
I think that the cover system is horrible for any first person game. I think if a game's a first person game, you shouldn't be able to see around the corner without physically looking around it. Also, leaning can work in console games, I thought Perfect Dark did fine. I tried the Quantum of Solace demo on PC, and I thought the cover system was horrible, same with Perfect Dark Zero on 360.
Edit: Especially for multiplayer the cover system just ruins it.
